Our Need for Validation and Why We Don’t Like to Need It

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Upbuilding the Self. This is Vipin, and I am here with my partners, Rasanath and Hari Prasada. Hey guys, so good to be with you. Likewise, thank you. So, when we facilitate our Enneagram workshops, one question we always ask at the outset is, what is the one thing that everyone in the world needs?

The answer to that question is our topic for today. So what is the answer to that question? And what inspired us to talk about this today? I want to hear from both of you. Well, there are a number of one things, but what we're focused on today is this one thing, which is really the driving force behind our egos.

Which is also a driving force behind the real self. If, We can distinguish between the two, and if we can really understand what's happening with both. That one thing is validation. It is validation. And validation, it's a way of affirming who we see ourselves as, or something that we did that allows us to see ourselves as we are choosing to see ourselves.

And people often respond to that question with love as an answer to that question. And then you will often share, what is the relationship between validation and love? Maybe Rasanath, you can speak to this.

Rasanath: Very simply put, validation is the feeling of being seen. Then we can fill in the blank afterwards to be seen as what?

or something I think I need to be, and we can distinguish the difference between those two things. Very fundamentally, it is the feeling of being seen, and the being seen means I exist. So, to me, validation is extremely fundamental to the sense of existence and identity. And without the sense of existence and identity, where is the question of love?

Love is born from a sense of existence and from a sense of who I am exchanging with somebody else. Wait, I'm going to interrupt you for one second

Vipin: because a sense of existence is necessary for almost anything. So you're saying in the question of how does validation relate to love and you're talking about it gives me a sense of existence, a sense of identity, and that's necessary for love, but it's not mutually exclusive to love.

So we need a sense of existence for any thing or any feeling. Help me understand

Rasanath: that better. When I don't know that I exist. First of all, when I don't feel seen, then I don't know that I exist. I also don't know what my identity is, and those two are so basic, that's why I call them very existential. They are the fundamental characteristics of our existence itself, and they are a part of the experience of love, right?

They are a big part of the experience of love. When we are loved, we feel seen. That very big experience of love we feel seen that is not the only experience of love, but without feeling seen There is no question of exchange. There is

Vipin: no question of love, right? So both Validation is the feeling of being seen and that's also the effect the impact of love But I think one question is that love seems so much bigger than validation.

Am I misunderstanding that? You Is validation much bigger than I'm understanding it? Or how can I equate these things, love and

Rasanath: validation? My understanding is that love is a much bigger thing than just validation. But love encompasses validation in the sense that when you are loved, you actually feel deeply seen.

And then there is more, there is exchange, there is expression. There is all of that, but fundamentally there is an experience of being

Vipin: seen when you feel loved. You can say that love is the deepest experience of validation. So in that sense, you could say validation is really tied to love. Wait, I want you to say this again.

Love is the deepest expression of validation. Yeah. Yeah. So when you are receiving validation to be seen as you actually are, and you feel that, that is an expression of love. How can it be otherwise? So they're very intertwined and this ties to what I was sharing at the outset that it depends on what the validation is for the ego or the self.

If the validation is for the ego, there is no question of love. It is love only in name. We've spoken about that in podcast episodes before. There's no love for the ego. That is a lust in the name of love. It's a selfish thing, and it's a misidentification. So how could it be real love? Whereas love is there for the self.

And that is the highest, deepest validation. You feel seen, you see the other. And on the spiritual platform where the self exists, we could say, It is only love and validation all the time. There is only proper seeing and caring. Yeah, I was stuck on this question of how can it be otherwise and I think you just illuminated it by separating validation for the ego versus validation for the self.

One is actually cannot be without love and the other there's no question of love there. There's no meaning to validation without love when you're talking about the real self. It is love. That validation is love. And there's no love in the validation of the ego. That is lust, as you said. Yes. But people are rarely thinking in these terms and our whole conversation or relationship with validation is skewed by the common understanding of our ego world.

Okay. So we were talking right before we recorded that we've recorded an episode on validation about a year and a half ago on validation and our need for validation. Yeah. Yeah. And the three of us realize there's still so much misunderstanding around validation, not just for people who've listened to that podcast episode, but through our workshops, our coaching, there's still so much confusion and misunderstanding.

So we wanted to tackle it again with a particular angle today. So let's start with why do you think validation is such a misunderstood idea? Well, that's exactly what I was touching on with the ego skewing the term itself, validation. Then we've only experienced it from egos through our own ego. And therefore, how can we understand the thing?

Because the ego is our identity of who we think we should be rather than who we are. It's not who we are. It's a tinted lens. And when we see validation through that tinted lens, it colors it. So we don't actually experience the real validation, the validation that is love. When we say people are misunderstanding validation, how are they actually understanding

Rasanath: it?

So there are many variations to it. I think. Well, when we use the word validation, many times people would say, oh, yeah, I don't need much of that. There is an immediate distancing myself from, I should say something. Just to see how people respond when we talk about validation. That makes it

Vipin: sound not attractive, right?

Like if you're distancing yourself, I don't need it so much. That means it can't be that attractive. Or if it's attractive, it's not attractive in a real way, in a way that's beneficial.

Rasanath: It almost feels like, and this is the vulnerability around validation itself, which is why the whole concept of being seen is such a vulnerable concept.

And one of the relationships with it is, I just don't have the need to be seen. Presumably because I'm so comfortable with myself. I can see myself. It's synonymous to saying, I don't need love. I'm beyond.

Vipin: I was just going to say that we should understand that that is the equivalent of saying, I don't need love.

I'm just so loving and I'm good. I'm great. I don't need love. Okay. Maybe I need a little bit of love here and there, but I don't need much. I'm good. It's weird because I can't imagine anyone saying they don't need love. And yet I can easily imagine many people saying I don't need validation. We hear it regularly.

We hear it regularly in our work in all different

Rasanath: forums. And I think there is a tremendous shame associated with wanting to be seen in a certain way. So much so that We just unconsciously distance ourselves from the need for it because we feel

Vipin: Actually, now that you're saying this, I think probably that same shame would exist with love, but because we've established it societally as the highest principle that it doesn't take much vulnerability to say, like, I need love, but again, no one likes to be needy.

And so that's the same thing. When people experience their neediness with love, that feels very shameful, but we can stay sort of at a distance. Yeah, of course I need love, we all need love, but somehow validation It doesn't carry that same principle as love does, so now I feel like, I

Rasanath: feel more neediness.

Interestingly, our understanding of love is also highly skewed towards romantic love, which is part of the reason why we can talk about Well, you know, workplace doesn't require that, but are we really working that way? I mean, and so much in workplace, the sensitivity around feedback and performance. What is that about?

It is about validation. Well, you're going to have to illuminate us on this a bit more. When we are talking about feedback, the reason why feedback is such a sensitive thing and such a charged thing at workplace. Because with every feedback, what I'm experiencing is whether I'm being seen or not. That is why it is such a sensitive thing and so painful to be both on the receiving end and on the giving end because it's so sensitive.

But we refuse to acknowledge the sensitivity around it. We are trying to make this, well, it's not personal. I was just doing a workshop for a series B company. And one of the biggest illuminations of people went around sharing. One person said that I've worked for so long in my life. And today is the first day I feel like I have to bring my emotions into the workplace.

They exist no matter what. And I think I need to bring it. And another person jumped off of that and said, this was a revelation that I didn't understand. It always irritated me when people gave me feedback and said, well, don't take it personally. And now finally I made the connection that every feedback session is actually personal.

And it just irritates me. When people say don't take it personally, how can it not be? It is. It is personal because there is such a feeling of being seen in that session. Then the response of, look, it's not about you. It's about your work. What we unpacked was when somebody says, don't take it personally, it is also them, the person giving feedback, distancing themselves.

from the sensitive nature of the feedback because it's hard to give feedback it is personal and so the only way I can step into that space is by asking you to not take it personally so that then it makes me feel comfortable about not And

Vipin: the dynamic there between it's my work versus it's me. Well, again, there's an ego version of that, and there's a self version of that.

With the ego, it's whatever I do is establishing my place in the world. So if people don't like what I do, then my place is shaky. My identity is shaky. I don't feel enough. And the self version of that is, I want to be operating off of the highest values. I want to be a servant of every living being. I want to be a servant of every self, and I want to impact people with that spirit.

And if I'm not, if something I'm doing is not having that effect, then that means that That I have work to do. That's painful. I want to be having that effect. And it's genuinely painful. It's a good thing that that's painful. It should be. If I actually care about other people, then when they're seeing what I'm doing, Is not serving very well.

I should feel pain by that. Now what I do with that pain is something else. Do I guilt other people for making me feel pain? That would have nothing to do with the self. Like there's so many ways that this can go where the ego then takes it back. So sometimes if we're really trying to become the self, we're trying to become who we actually are.

There is a war between the ego and the self in that. One more question about this feedback point. So if I'm giving constructive feedback to someone in the context of this validation conversation, we're saying the sensitivity is a person not feeling seen. As soon as I'm giving constructive feedback, they may not feel seen.

Does that mean that as the feedback giver, I'm not seeing them? Is it possible to see them and give constructive feedback?

Rasanath: Yes. But in that sense, I have to actually be able to see them fully, which means my own ego can't come in the way of how I see somebody else, right? Which means I have to work with myself first.

I have to first establish the accuracy of what I'm saying. Where is it coming from for me? Am I seeing all the layers that actually exist here? And to be honest, when I'm giving feedback, a feedback session, the way I think about a feedback session, it's a truth seeking session where both people collectively move towards what is actually true and then act on what the truth is.

But when you come into a conversation, making it a very one way thing, There is a very high risk that you're not seeing.

Vipin: Also for the recipient, it may not be, I'm not being seen the way I want to be seen, but that doesn't mean you're not being seen. So you can't presume that my view on, hey, you're not seeing me

Rasanath: is also the truth.

That's why it's a mutual process. So this was the other side. Now the receiver's end is, and this goes back to Hariprasad's point around When the ego wants to be seen a certain way, the definition of the ego is an identity that I think our definition of the identity, I think I should be rather than who I am.

And when I'm seeking validation for that identity, and when that is not coming, then again, I don't feel seen. My ego doesn't feel seen. So what we have to do, if we have to raise the experience of actually seeing someone or feeling seen by someone, is we have to really work to rise above the ego. There is no other way, which is also why this topic is complicated, because the effort that is required.

To genuinely give and receive validation is work of the ego and

Vipin: the pain of not being seen for what I do not being validated for what I do can be a good kind of pain in the sense that it's a growing pain if we take it in that way, like when a child is learning to walk and falls. That is inevitable.

You cannot ever, ever, ever expect a child to walk without falling. If you expect that, that is inhuman and will traumatize the child. So likewise, when we expect of ourselves and we expect of other people that they are not going to fall, that they're not going to have any shortcomings, that they're not going to do things in a way that requires guidance, correction, help.

then that is inhuman and it can be traumatic. And we do this to ourselves a lot. So it's very important to recognize that the pain of not feeling validated for what I do is often essential as a growing pain so that I can do better and become better. Thank you. So let us Go to understanding validation on the spectrum that we've talked about.

We were speaking just before we were recording about how people have very different degrees of awareness. with validation. And there's an entire spectrum from a very low level of awareness of my relationship with validation and an unhealthy one to a very healthy, aware relationship. So can you guys help us understand the spectrum and plot some points along the spectrum that will help us Try to get a sense of where do I exist on this spectrum and how do I develop a healthier relationship with validation?

Yeah, it starts with the sense that we talked about that I don't need validation. It really starts with, I don't need any validation. I'm good. I'm good. The lowest point is I don't need any validation. I just do what I want to do, independent of how I'm going to be seen for it or not seen for it. I just do.

And I'm good. Of course, we can say there's even lower levels. I'm starting from a generous place. The lowest level would be You're not validating me, and I think I need an ego validation in a way that I'm just going to usurp from you, and I'll do it at all costs. And I mean, violent crimes happen when people feel like they don't have a place in the world, and they're not being validated, and they're just gonna let out their anger, their aggression.

In the most base horrific way. Right? So there are lower levels, but in terms of having some human relationship with validation, that's like not even human. It's not a humane way of being. So I would start with this sense of I'm good. Yeah, I don't need any validation. I just do what I want to do. So the question is, what is that person missing?

They're missing that. They need, they actually need validation and that they're operating on validation. Yeah. And why do you want to do the things that you want to do? What validation are you getting? And in what ways is that validation coming? It's not just, this is a major misunderstanding. Let it be cleared right now, please.

Major misunderstanding is validation means praise. Validation often comes as praise. We often are not aware of how much we're seeking praise when we're seeking validation, but that is not the only form of validation. There are other forms. And so when we have tried to convince ourselves that we don't need praise or when we say, I hate praise, or I don't want it, I don't need it, all of that stuff, that's a whole, we should talk more about that because there's stuff there that's important, but.

We should know, first of all, that's not the only form of validation. This is huge, I can't emphasize it enough, because so many people that we work with will say, I don't need validation because I don't need praise. First of all, that's not true. We do need praise, so we'll come back to that. But second of all, even if it were true, for argument's sake, That doesn't mean you don't need validation.

Validation comes in the form of money. It comes in the form of trust. That's a subtle and perhaps even healthier version of validation. It's less egoic when we seek validation in the form of trust, but it's still validation and it's still within our ego worlds until we're on the path really to the self.

Physician, you mentioned? Yeah, having a sense of people look at me in a certain way. When I walk into a room, I see how people treat me. I may not even be conscious of it, but it's there. And if they looked at me any different, I would feel bad about myself. There are so many dimensions to it. It's unbelievable.

But validation is not only praise. And the moment we say, I don't need validation because I don't need praise, we've got it wrong. What did you want to say more about praise? Praise we also are seeking. We're just embarrassed by seeking it. Because as you said, Vipin, it makes us feel needy. And it feels like, ooh.

And then, oftentimes, when people praise us, we can say, that's uncomfortable. Why is it uncomfortable to be praised? Why should it be uncomfortable to be praised? That's a very human, wonderful thing. What's wrong with it? Why do I feel uncomfortable? Oh, because I shouldn't need it. Because then it makes me feel dependent on the praise and that makes me feel needy.

And so even if I'm telling myself I don't need it, but it's coming, I feel uncomfortable when it's coming because there's a fear. Ah, that means I'm going to be dependent on it. So no, it's uncomfortable. I don't want it. I don't need it. I'm not dependent on it. I'm good.

Rasanath: Well, the other thing with praise, praise is very directly tied to, and not unfounded, praise is directly tied to fueling the ego.

Vipin: The way that it's used currently in most of our lives, in most situations, but it doesn't have to be.

Rasanath: When I need praise of what I am actually acknowledging is that I have egoic needs.

Vipin: Which are not real needs, by the way, the ego doesn't have real needs.

Rasanath: Which then makes me feel like. I am egoic. There is a certain narcissism attached to it.

And I don't want to feel that way. I don't want to feel narcissistic. And so what I'm going to do is separate myself from that because I'm beyond it. And that's when we see a lot of problems occurring because you're not humble enough to acknowledge that. Yeah, this is where I'm trapped. And it's only by accepting, yeah, you know, I need validation.

I don't want to be so heavily dependent on the egoic validation, but I still need it right now. There is a way in which we then learn how to transcend egoic validation. But when we deny it, then we just dissociate our dependence from our dependence on it. Then it's operating. It's just operating unconsciously.

That makes it more dangerous.

Vipin: We have built so many defenses against the need for validation. We're walking defense systems against our need for validation. And so we've convinced ourselves. That we don't need it or we don't need it that much or we don't need it as much as some people need it and we sort of feel better than those other people moral superiority, right?

It's very subtle. We're not consciously doing this. This is happening unconsciously. But the defenses are so high. Why are we so defended? Because we're so terrified. What would happen if I was needy? I also think I have this experience with our daughter that, uh, this relationship with praise and validation can start so early that I found it very surprising that I would sit down with her when I wanted to help her see herself.

With the same eyes that I was seeing her and I would offer words of praise or affirmation about something about some effort that she had made and she really just rejected my offers and I found it really surprising because I thought, Oh, isn't it the most natural thing to someone is cheering you on and especially as a parent cheering on a child and I I'm a parent.

I was trying to assess is that, is it feel shameful to need it? I also think there's an element of what does this person want from me? Are they trying to manipulate me? And I think that's true in our adult association with validation. I get suspicious. Okay. What are the strings attached with his validation?

In the NVC framework, interestingly enough, when we've done a bunch of episodes on nonviolent communication, NVC, which Marshall Rosenberg created, there is a sense that when you praise somebody, you have power over them. And so you should be very careful about that kind of stuff. And there is a truth to that.

But how are you using power and also is negating that helping anybody, right? These are important questions. And when you talk about the paradigm of the self, you talk about stepping into who we actually are, and you see people who've done it. They're full of praise, and it would be ridiculous to suppress our praise of them, or frankly, our praise of anybody that we love.

Yeah, my own relationship was informed by this. Actually, I, it's this question of who are you to praise me? Right? And I know that I have felt that on the giving end, I've held myself back years ago. I would hold myself back from giving praise because I would ask myself the question, who am I to give this person praise?

And now it's amazing when that has, I think in part, in large part, because I have seen the impact. of praise for me and how nourishing it is, how important it is, and now I give it very freely. So when, when it's rejected by my own child, I think, huh, something is not working here because I want this person to really feel seen in that way.

It's a language. Praise is a language that can give love without it. Is completely inhuman once again. And so when people don't accept and don't allow us to speak that language, you feel immediately the block in the love in the connection when people rebuff praise. You can feel there's a rejection going on.

There's a block. The defense comes up and it interrupts the connection. It's very palpable. I've had this many many times in my life where I felt people not receiving something that I'm trying to offer them and I've seen others do it with each other and I think ah You can actually see even on their faces the block that comes.

Rasanath: Also, sometimes when we praise people You They feel like it's not coming at the time that they want, the way they want it, and how they want it. And then when they get it, they are also reminded of what causes them so much pain is that they didn't receive it. And it almost feels like you're giving it because you feel forced to give it.

And that's the last thing. It's almost, it becomes pity. They feel like they're pitied upon when they're being praised. And so like, you just reject that. That is not, I don't want to be pitied upon. You're giving that to me because you feel like I need it. No, I don't need it.

Vipin: And sometimes there's truth in that people shower praise out of pity, flattery to, as you mentioned, but then to get something that they want.

I mean, there are all kinds of ways that the ego is at work. So praise in and of itself is not a good thing. Praise in the service of the self is a must. You cannot have a relationship between two people who are really striving to be as they are without praise. doesn't make any sense. But just because there's praise in a relationship doesn't mean it's a good thing.

There's codependency. Everything exists in all ends of the spectrum with praise. Okay, so let's get back to this spectrum of validation. We have all these very interesting side roads that we are exploring, which are very rich. I want to come back to a hundred percent. You started with a low point on this spectrum being the denial of the need for validation.

What's up from there? More awareness, but not full awareness. Yeah, well, so in that lower point, we talked about There's sort of a spectrum there also where it's like, yeah, I have some need for validation. I get that I'm a human being. And so I was made with that, but I don't need it that much. Or like, yeah, I have some need for it, but only in certain ways in certain contexts or other people I see need it so much more than me.

And there's sometimes truth to these things. We can't say that there's no truth, but the idea of I don't need a lot of validation is a way of making myself feel better. That's not a real truth. And so there's some spectrum and I need no validation. I need some validation and it kind of goes from there.

But then a higher point of awareness would be, Oh, I really need validation. I really need validation, but I'm not yet ready to own what that means. So, therefore, I have to dress it up in a way that's acceptable for my ego, and then I have various defense mechanisms in so doing. And Rasanath, we were speaking about some examples of this beforehand, please.

Rasanath: Well, so, I'm not asking the question, well, I need validation, but is it validation for the real self or the false self? Because we have so conflated ourselves with. with the ego. But then as Hariprasada mentioned, I don't know what to do with it. So one of the ways of approaching this, Oh, I need validation.

Okay. I'm just going to ask for it. I'm just going to tell, well, I'm a human being, I need validation. And so here you go, give it to me. Now, very subtly smacks of like, just entitlement, then you feel like, okay, I just need to I will ask for it. I'll just ask for it and I'll get it. And that way I am being honest.

And it reminds me of C. S. Lewis's quote, right? I think it's in the Problem of Fame, where he talks about how honesty below the threshold of shame is not real honesty. Because when you are deeply honest, there is always an experience of like, there is an experience of insight about myself that is associated with it.

And then we walk through our own shame in the process. And that is a very big qualitative difference between somebody who is actually saying, well, you know, I so badly need validation for this. And I know that this is just reassuring my own ego, and I want to go beyond it, but I, at this stage, I actually so badly need it, versus just saying, here I am, give me the validation because I just need validation, that is a big qualitative, there is humility associated with one.

Vipin: So you're already taking us to a further level of awareness.

Rasanath: Yeah, between those two, there is humility, there is actual humility associated with one. And there is no humility associated with the other.

Vipin: So, Rasnath, you used the word entitlement, which is exactly what I had in mind. And entitlement means, it really looks like this.

Hey, I'm a human being. I need validation. That means you better give it to me. That means your job is to give it to me. And if you work for me, or if I work for you, that means you have a job to do. You better validate me. Because I need it and I'm human. And if we're in a relationship, a friendship or a romantic relationship, Hey, this is what you signed up for.

I'm a human being. I have these needs, so you better give it to me. And that means I'm also entitled to punish you

Rasanath: when you don't. Or if you can give that to me, and, uh, there are so many quotes that are going around on the social media where, well, if people don't, people don't appreciate you, then that's not a relationship that you need to be in.

So if you're not going to appreciate me, then that's the end of the relationship, right? So that's the other way of

Vipin: punishing. I mentioned Marshall Rosenberg, the creator of Nonviolent Communication, who had a brilliant insight here, which It's not so new, but his realization of it and the way he frames it is very striking.

I found it very helpful. I actually, it's so ironic because I was just thinking how I want to do a podcast episode on this very subject. And I almost shared with you guys a bunch of times, but then I didn't. And now it comes out organically through this conversation. The term is emotional slavery.

Marshall Rosenberg talks about emotional slavery. I'm entitled. I have a genuine need for validation. So there's awareness there. I have a need for validation, but because it's refracted through the ego and it's nothing to do with the self anymore, it's tinted. It's the tinted lens. Therefore you better give it to me.

And if you don't, then I'm either going to leave you, or I'm going to give you the cold shoulder, or I'm going to tell you how bad you are, I'm going to make you feel guilty. There are all kinds of different ways that we play out our rebellion, our aggression, our desire to make you feel like you're not worthy because you're not making me feel worthy.

So. I have all kinds of strategies here, but that is emotional slavery. That is where, in a relationship, you better do this, because if you don't, there will be consequences. This also reminds me of the dissatisfaction that comes when someone gives you something that you ask for with sort of a stick. That you're wielding to punish.

If you don't, Michael often gives this example with the Enneagram. If you hold a gun to someone's head, it's to tell me you love me. And they tell you, how will that feel? There will be no satisfaction coming from that. So how does that different? I'm struggling to understand this point of awareness on the spectrum.

If I'm saying to someone, Hey, I need validation. This is what I need. You need to give it to me. How does one ever feel satisfied by that? They don't. That's exactly the point. They don't. But they keep, as is talked about, the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

This is beating my head against the wall. I want this. I deserve this. It's a genuine need. So I'm going to get it. And you better give it to me. And then when I get it, I just need more of it because it's not really satisfying the self. It's not nourishing who I truly am. It's just some food for the ego, which is junk and doesn't make me satisfied.

And then I feel like, well, you didn't even really give it to me freely. This was emotional slavery. So therefore it's not satisfying. So then I think, how am I going to be satisfied? More quantity. But it never works. This may be a moot point, but this is sounding lower than the previous one to me. I mean, this sounds, in some ways, the denial of the need for validation feels a lot more innocent than what we're talking about right now in emotional slavery.

That's great. So this ties to what I gave as an example that there could be lower, right? In a really destructive consciousness, it's like I'm going to get my validation at all costs. So this is starting to tie to that. But the seeds of that are there in an awareness because there is actually an awareness that I need validation.

It is a genuine need. I'm. Not really taking responsibility for it, but I'm thinking I'm taking responsibility for it. So there's some striving in the right direction, but it's a double edged sword. It's so easy to slip into lower and lower levels of consciousness or awareness. Okay, so let's keep moving.

Rasnath, you gave us a peek into a higher awareness with validation around, and you were speaking about the humility associated with acknowledging the need, but not then using that as a, in a distorted way to demand from others.

Rasanath: So here's what happens when I really ask the question, well, what am I seeking validation for?

99. 9 percent of the time, the answer is very clearly for my ego. And while previously I have distanced myself from really experiencing that, which is why I basically say, well, I don't need validation. And now I'm actually beginning to acknowledge one, how much I need it, but also what I'm seeking it for is not the real self.

I'm seeking it for the false self. And that the awareness of that also then starts to bring the awareness of, you know, the truth. Well, then what should I seek it for? Can you give me

Vipin: some examples from your own lives? Like what is an example of seeking validation in your life for the ego versus seeking validation for the real self?

I also just want to clarify one thing on this. So for 99. 999 percent of people, it is. The case that I'm seeking validation for my ego 100 percent of the time.

Rasanath: Because I think that's the real self.

Vipin: Yes. So when I'm saying it feels like we're jumping, what you're saying in response to that is, well, for most of us, all of the time, we're still fully in the realm of the ego.

So it's not that much of a jump. As soon as I start to ask, am I really trying to validate the ego versus the self? Yes. I've maybe entered a different paradigm. We're still actually talking mostly about people validating their egos. Yes, that's right. That's what Rasanath set up about 99. 9 percent of the time we're seeking validation for our egos.

I'm just clarifying that further. I'm saying actually it's 100 percent of the time for 99. 9 percent of people. And then as soon as you decide you want to walk this path to the self, I understand the ego is not who I am. I want to be done with this. Now you're operating in a different sphere altogether.

Rasanath: This is what leads to what I actually am able to acknowledge is that no amount of validation actually makes me feel seen for who I am. There is a certain emptiness that gets associated with the validation for the false self. I begin to see it and I can also say, wow, this is like a, it never feels satisfying.

And so then what's wrong with this pursuit? But this is also predicated on knowing who I really am. Yes. Even without knowing what I really am, what I start to do is acknowledge I have been pursuing this for so long. I have also been getting it in so many different ways. And there is a certain level of honesty where I can say, and I still feel not seen what's going on here.

When we sincerely learn how to grapple, and again, it requires a certain humility and honesty to acknowledge that when we can acknowledge it, then that's where the the question needs to be. It's like when you're eating and you're continuously feeling hungry, something is wrong. So that's the indication.

Vipin: The indication is I'm getting this validation, but There's no end to it. I'm never satisfied.

Rasanath: Yeah, it still feels, I still feel unseen. That's the hunger. And then, I asked, Okay, something is wrong here. I have to really investigate. And that's why I gave the physical, like, example because, Well, if that's happening, I'm constantly, despite eating, I'm not putting on weight.

Something is wrong. I have to really understand what's going on. That's where the inquiry then broadens to, well, what is this validation for? Where is it all going? That's where the emergence of the true self. And the inquiry about the true self starts.

Vipin: There are also varying degrees of egotism in the way that we seek validation.

So there, it's like, you know, you have junk food and then you have really bad junk food, or you have healthier food or quite healthy food. There are degrees to all of this. So when there's more purity, when there's higher value in the praise, In the reason for praising or validating, then it has a different effect, but it's still it's getting closer to the self, but it still doesn't necessarily points to the self, but it doesn't actually get us there.

And so it will never really satisfy. It just gives us a hint. So to answer your question about examples, Vipin, when I was pursuing filmmaking and I wanted to be an incredible Hollywood writer, director, actor, star, I wanted a lot of validation for that. I wanted the world to be talking about my films. I wanted the world to be talking about me, the filmmaker.

I wanted that Newspapers were writing up. We've never seen such a genius before. And if somebody were to tell me that, Hey, you have all this need for validation. I would say, no, no, I don't. I just want to be that great because That's the kind of person that I'm worth being. And when people see that they'll naturally be moved to share these things.

That's not me being needy. I just, I'm going to be great. I'm determined. I'm, I'm going to do it. And then the natural outcome will be, people will be talking about it. That's not my fault. Right? So you see the ego here and how disguised and defended it is. I don't need validation. I don't need it. But today, I'm ready.

When people praise our work or validate our work, or you can see the impact by the way that they carry themselves without any expression of praise. When you can feel the gravity of what is happening for them, the connection and the impending transformation and realizations that are coming, that is validation.

And if I were to take that validation and say, therefore, see, I'm so awesome. Look at what I did. Then it would be taking something that is very, very powerful. Highly priced and making it very cheap. So this is what I was talking about earlier with the war between the ego and the self, something is happening.

A build exists. To try to reach people at the level of the self to try to act from the level of the self amongst us and to export those relationships outward and to encourage other people to develop that relationship with themselves with each other and to have to really try to set an example and inspire and guide people on the path to the self self realization right but if then we See an effect from that and we feel very touched by it and then we make a meaning out of it.

Therefore, I'm so amazing. Now, the realm of the self has just been overtaken by the ego and it can happen in an instant. This is the war. And this is where we have to be so vigilant, so absolutely vigilant all the time. My guru's guru, Srila Prabhupada, who we often will speak about, really gave us the mission of up build, though we've not met him personally.

It's his, his life has given us this mission, his teachings. He would say, my only complaint is that my students, my disciples, they don't fear illusion enough. Maya is the Sanskrit term for illusion. They don't fear Maya or illusion enough. In other words, they're walking the path to the self very confidently, which is nice, but they're doing so naively.

They're not recognizing that the ego is right there, ready to pounce at all times and overtake and takes an experience of the self. And then mash it up and make it food for the ego. This is what we have to be so careful about. So in our work, there is that vigilance that is needed. And for anybody who wants to get to true validation, true love, true satisfaction, as we are, it necessitates that we're aware of the ego and we don't let the ego come in and cheapen everything and steal it away from the realm of the self.

Okay, so I want to Get us to the point of how do we develop a healthy relationship with validation. But before we get to that question, is there any other point on the spectrum of understanding validation at even a higher level of awareness than what we've talked about? The highest level of awareness is I need validation.

I'm humbled by that. I'm honest about it. And I only seek it in terms of my real self, not my ego period. And I seek to give it for the real self in everybody else, not just stroking their egos. And it's full of love. It's drenched in love. That

Rasanath: sounds very attractive. It's beautiful when you see that. And then from that place, there is no real going back.

You can't settle for any other form of validation actually falls short because it doesn't quite touch us. The means of feeling seen is so shallow in everything else.

Vipin: It was very bland in comparison. That's it. Sure. The pro pod apparently once said. Even I need appreciation. This is a self realized soul.

This is somebody who had no more ego left. Done. Finished. Completely lived as the real self. And who was so transcendental, perfectly transcendental, I mean, you have to believe that such a person could exist. And he did, and the lives of those who he touched stand as the living proof to this day, including our own lives, though we didn't have personal time with him, right?

He actually passed in 1977, so before I was even born. But he said, even I need appreciation. What does that mean? It means I'm not above love. I'm not above validation and like doing a good job in service to all of the people that I care about, which is every single living being you think that it doesn't affect me that I'm indifferent, whether you care about the impact or not, like you think it doesn't matter to me whether I'm able to reach your heart or not, that would be heartless.

Even I need appreciation, of course. But he wasn't dependent on it in the way that we are, and he was willing to do whatever it took to give love, whether he got it back in return or not. So he was Receiving love from a very different dimension altogether, a spiritual dimension and his love with others who were on that path was so nourishing as well.

So in that sense, being fueled by a pure love that is just endless, that is so attractive, so powerful, that's what's required here. And then even when he's met with the most horrific rejection left and right all the time, and there's so much that can be said about his life and how much rejection he received, it was unreal, really like unimaginable.

Still, he was so determined to give his love and he would be so grateful if anybody received it and loved him back. So, you both have really helped to outline this Understanding validation on a spectrum of awareness, and I would imagine it would be very helpful for each of us. To each person listening to be able to plot where they are on this spectrum to be honest with ourselves, like where do I live right now?

What is my relationship with validation? And then the question becomes, how do I, wherever I am on that spectrum, how do I develop a healthier relationship with validation? Maybe I can't get to this. Um, I'm going to start by asking you about this promised land that you painted, uh, right away. But how do I start to take steps?

towards that. What would you both say about what is the most important thing to start developing a healthier relationship with validation? Most important thing is just what you said. For starters is see that I really need it. And there are so many different personalities. We use the Enneagram framework frequently, the personality typology that has nine different primarily.

And you see that so many different People with so many different natures will say I don't need validation because of this reason or this reason or this reason and some people more externally are oriented towards validation and others and some people are more ready to admit that whether healthy or not.

But if we don't see that we need validation, we don't see how it's driving us, regardless of our personality, we've missed the whole thing. There is no possible growth. What to speak of getting to that promised land, which is promised because it's where we actually live. The self actually lives. Who we really are is like that.

That we feel validated. And we validate others freely with so much love and inspiration all the time. So that's actually how we are. If we can uncover ourselves, peel off the layers of the ego, how is that even going to begin? If we don't recognize regardless of our personality, we have this deep seated need.

And then we have to see how is this affecting my life? How is this affecting my decisions? I'm telling myself, no, I don't need this because I'm an introvert. Or I'm a type 9 on the Enneagram, the peace seeker, where I really care less than some other types about external validation. And I just kind of want to have autonomy, do my thing, live in my comfort zone, be peaceful and harmonious with everybody.

And yeah, I don't really need validation so much. Turn that around. Start with the premise that I need validation. Where do I need it? In what forms am I seeking it? How is that impacting me? How is that impacting other people? If you start with that premise, a whole world is going to be revealed. And this is the prison for every single human being.

This is the prison of the ego, regardless of your personality, whether you're a type three achiever, that is more externally We've done Riso and Russ Hudson of the Enneagram Institute who trained us would say they're the poster child for validation because it is so central to their lives, whether you're on that extreme or whether you're on the extreme of being so much less centrally focused on it, it doesn't matter.

It's not that one is better and one is worse. It's the same thing, just arranged in a different way. All of our egos are centered on wanting to see myself a certain way. So for the nine it's, I'm a peaceful, harmonious person. I'm a kind person. I can go with the flow. Okay. So how are you getting validation for that?

How do you know you're that person? You're getting validation, whether it's in the form of praise or how people look at you or how your life is set up or so many things you're getting validation. And if you're not getting the validation, you're feeling the frustration and compensating. So for any person, regardless of their personality, this is playing out my image, my self image, my feeling that I'm the person I think I should be that I'm enough.

Is at stake, find that, see how it's impacting you and then start from there to develop a new relationship of honesty and seeking it in a way that is humble and owning the shame of, Oh, maybe I am needy here is so powerful what you're saying. So seeing that I really need validation and then inquiring into the nature of that needs.

Where do I need it? What is the effect on me? What is the effect on others? Who do I seek it from? For what am I seeking it exactly? And really challenge yourself to see when I'm not getting it, what are the ways that I'm acting out? What are the ways that I'm compensating? What are the ways I'm suppressing and denying?

What are the ways I'm feeling depressed or inconsequential? Very good. So seeing that I need it, And then seeing how this need forms the prison that I find myself in, that's it.

Rasanath: I have nothing different to add to what Hariprasada has already said. I was going to say, personally in my life, there are times where I Made deliberate attempts to, I called it validation starvation programs.

Vipin: Oh, this is like that, um, a phrase that I've been seeing online about something starvation, like, uh, Stimulation stimulation. Yeah. Sensory sensory deprivation or simulate deprivation. Yeah. So you went on a validation deprivation diet.

Rasanath: How did that go for you? Several times. It has been so revealing. about my dependencies on it.

Then when I really ask myself the question, what I've experienced is restlessness.

Vipin: How does one even do that? We've been talking for the last hour about how we need all need validation and it comes to us in all different forms. How do you even go on one of those diets?

Rasanath: For example, specifically for me, one of the ways in which I seek validation is by speaking and saying things, you know, that could be insightful or nuanced or

Vipin: wisdom bombs as we speak about, uh, but you decided not to share your wisdom bombs for a while.

And

Rasanath: sometimes it's just like, I'm not going to, I'm just not going to say anything. And you experience a sense of restlessness. Yeah, and then what you also experience is somebody else said what I wanted to say and everybody went, Oh my gosh, that's an amazing point. And you have to live with the discomfort of it.

And there is always a pinch that comes with it. And then you see, wow, this is so, like, look at how attached I am to, it really reveals how attached we are to things. Attached our ego is to certain things. Now, what's crazy is, if it was all about just the point that needed to be made, it doesn't matter who makes it.

You can genuinely appreciate the amazing, beautiful nature of the point.

Vipin: Actually, you could be happy. Not saying that this is always the case, but you can be happy that somebody is speaking my heart. Somebody is speaking something in a way that's effective, that I'm so passionate about, this really helps the cause.

And I feel connected with that person and with the persons that they're influencing. And it's not, and it's not about me making the point.

Rasanath: Well, yes, it can also be very validating because when somebody else says it, oh wow, I feel like I am on the right track because everybody agrees with it without it actually being, yeah, you can make it about yourself, but then what you, you don't experience the contentment.

Wow. Okay. Like I had the same thought and everybody felt that was so I feel so grateful that I'm on the right track. You feel the pain of not being seen as the person who had more wisdom than everybody else in the room. That's just a and I've repeatedly experienced it. And then you want to let go of that.

And what you're doing in the process is that you're actually intentionally letting go. Putting that validation in the, in the pocket of the ego and at the same time also taking the validation that, well, what I thought was actually the right direction and that's enough, that feels good for the self and that is an exercise that when you repeat, you learn how to live with less.

You genuinely learn how to live with actually less validation for the ego because you'll never be satisfied.

Vipin: But the less validation for the ego, the more validation for the self is possible. Otherwise, it obstructs. It obstructs. The validation for the ego makes me attached to the ego's sense of self, and it obstructs it.

But If you have less for the ego, it doesn't mean less. I'm going to starve myself. No, actually we want to love and be loved. We're embracing that. We're not trying to negate that at all. And on this wonderful example you gave us, I was reflecting how in this team, I so frequently feel With each member that you are really saying exactly what needs to be said.

And I get so excited and like, wow, amazing. I'm so happy that people get to hear this and that I get to hear it. It just like inflames my own sense of mission and desire to make it to the goal and enthusiasm for the path itself and sense of connection with you and with it. the teachings to realize the self.

So it's a huge blessing. It's a wonderful thing when people can represent what is important to us. That is true. That is real. That is related to the self.

Rasanath: One of the other ways in which I have also sought validation is by when I hear something, I have to put my own nuance to it. It's such a habit and substance of what I have.

Also, try to practice many times is resisting the temptation to say something immediately to say, well, it's not quite that it's actually this in the name of accuracy. It can very easily be a pursuit of validation to what I've tried to do is resist the temptation to say something and just say, okay, let me if it's about accuracy.

Let me just actually really think over how accurate it is. And you know what I've found is many times what the person has said is actually quite satisfying. So there is just so many ways in which they are seeking validation for the ego. That comes in the way of experiencing true validation for the self.

Vipin: Well, I want to thank you both for many reasons. The image of the ego prison and the bars of my, all of my ego validation needs is very poignant, I think, to leave everyone with. And I would say that I have learned more about, um, my own need for validation and my own, my relationship with it and the prison house that I live in from both of you for a decade now.

And that has, um, it's changed my life. So I'm deeply grateful for all of the wisdom that you've shared with me over many, many years. And I'm, I'm really prayerful that some of that wisdom will through this conversation be shared with many other people who can start to build a healthier and healthier relationship with this need that we all have.

Thank you both very much. That's so moving, but deeply, deeply grateful for these relationships and this opportunity to be able to serve our listeners. Thank you.