Pinch Moments: A Tool to Restore Communication (and Relationships!)

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Michael: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Upbuilding the Self. This is Michael Sloyer and I am here with Rasanath and Vipin. So today we are going to be talking about, and I can't believe we've recorded, I don't know, 50 episodes, and we haven't done an episode on this tool that we're going to be presenting today.

I think it's one of the tools that I use the most in coaching, if not the most. The tool is. a concept called pinch moments.

And Vipin, you were the one who brought this tool to Upbuild from your previous company. So it would be great if you could get us started by sharing what is a pinch moment. And why is it such a powerful tool in coaching and in life in general?

Vipin: Thank you. Well, it was given to us. So some kind soul, another founder, actually it was one of my co-founders was talking as we were in the beginning, early stages of our company trying to figure out how do we build this?

And he was talking to another founder and that founder gave My co founder, this tool saying, this is something that someone else had given us and we found it really helpful, this tool of pinch moments.

So it's, it's been passed on from one team to another and we've given it to hundreds of people. So just trying to pay forward what the benefits that we received. So the way we defined a pinch moment, Was any time in an interaction where one of us felt triggered,

And by trigger, what we meant was an uncomfortable emotion that was coming up based on the conversation or an emotional reaction, a charged reaction. And when that would happen, that would mean we would express. I'm feeling a pinch moment and it would pause the conversation that we were having the content of the conversation and we would rise to the meta conversation about what was actually happening in the dynamic or in the relationship to address that because that was often getting in the way of.

The actual content. We had a founding team of, at that point we were three of us and it's a very intense startup life where there's lots of debates, disagreements, convergence, divergence, and things can get heated. And so having a tool like this, where we can continuously address. where we might be intentionally or usually unintentionally triggering somebody else by something we've said or something we've done.

How do we smooth those things out before letting those cracks in the foundations of our relationship continue to like grow while we keep building on top of them?

Michael: It's important to highlight two things you said. One is that the conversation gets paused. and then what you said about rising above we stop talking about the content and we start talking about the relationship or some dynamic that exists that's different from the content

Vipin: Yeah, exactly. In some ways, there's two conversations. One conversation gets paused in service of a second conversation. The second conversation is. Always there, but it's maybe more silent. Like what's the dynamic? In the group, that's sort of an implicit conversation, a silent conversation that's happening, and you're actually bringing attention to that and saying, we're going to pause the first conversation about whatever it is we're talking about and move to the second channel, which is what's happening in what's the tone, what's the energy.

I mean, it's usually something specific that someone brings up. And then the other thing rising about, I. If you're in this big room where everyone's debating or whoever's in the group is debating, and then all of a sudden you step onto the balcony where you can watch what's happening below, that's what I meant by rising above to have this meta conversation.

Vipin: let's observe what's happening. And can we talk about what's happening in again, in the relationship, in the dynamic, in the energy and the tone before we go back to the floor and continue the first conversation, the first channel,

Michael: I like thinking about it in that language of channels. That makes a lot of sense to me to think about how we have a radio where we're tuning in.

Well, nobody really has radios anymore, but when radios did exist, you could tune into one channel, which is one talk show, one conversation, or you can tune into another channel. So this is really about being intentional about

Rasanath: which channel we're on. They're talking about what's happening underneath. is actually in the service of the content and the relationship itself.

Many times when we talk about stopping one conversation, having a second conversation, it can feel like a derailment. It's actually not the derailment, it's in the service of what was actually being debated upon, what was actually being discussed. When we don't step out of that and discuss what's happening underneath what we are discussing about.

There's just a lot of wastage of valuable energy because the listening channels are blocked. So this is helping us listen more deeply to ourselves and to other people. And once we do that, then the actual content has a much smoother flow.

Michael: That we might look for in ourselves and even other people to know that a pinch moment is happening.

Vipin: So for me, the first sign is changes in the body. So I know that typically when my adrenaline is up, some Frustration, some emotional trigger. I feel it in my jaw. I've learned to notice that my jaw gets tighter. I need to stop whatever I'm doing or whatever I'm saying and pause. So it's really helpful to notice.

You know what's happening in the body when I get triggered so that that's one the second thing is When I am triggered, when I'm having a pinch moment, I usually stop listening to the conversation and I'm thinking about the pinch.

So my mind is moving towards this thing I'm experiencing and I'm less engaged in whatever it is we're talking about. So that's another sign for me, and then I think about in the other person. just noticing a shift in the energy, some additional tension.

And that could, it looks different for different people. Sometimes for some, it could be more intensity, louder, more aggressiveness, but it could also be quieter. All of a sudden someone who's retreating, someone who's disengaged And this comes from knowing the personalities that you're working with.

Michael: That's great. Rasanath, how about for you? What are the signs?

Rasanath: Usually, it's uh, it's some sort of a knot in the stomach. I distinctly feel, I'm experiencing shortness of breath that becomes a very helpful sign that I have to slow down. Now, typically the temptation given, how I have been conditioned to work is acceleration.

You hit the, and this is again, explaining why the tool of pinch moment can be extremely helpful is our tendency is to accelerate is to push harder. And all that energy that's pent up, that's actually Getting constrained at this point starts to get channeled in a very intense way many times, or it then goes inwards and then shuts you down.

And the pinch moment, when we talk about pinch moments and give space for that energy to come out in its most appropriate way, it's very effective because the simple word that comes to mind is de escalation.

Michael: So there's lots of different signs in the body. I think for me, I start speaking faster, which is consistent with what you talked about around acceleration.

Okay, good. So, before we continue to talk about the benefits, let's also talk about what is hard about using a tool like this.

Because I think in speaking about some of what makes this difficult, it'll actually illuminate the benefits even more. So in, in both of your experiences, what are reservations that teams have, or that individuals have around using a tool like this?

Rasanath: I think, the reservations come up before adopting the tool and potentially even after adopting the tool.

So typically before you adopt the tool, the pinch moments essentially is an acknowledgement that something is wrong. Something is not sitting right, right? And the reason why we use, again, just spending a little time on why we use the language around pinch moments, he can say, I'm feeling really triggered right now, but triggered itself is a triggering word.

it creates a lot of tension, and pinch moments is a way of conveying the experience. So when we feel pinched, it's not a pleasant experience, right? Even physically, when we actually feel pinched, it's not a pleasant experience, but it's also an invitation to talk about a deeper emotion and also understand somebody else's.

deeper emotion Now, by the sheer dint of usage of the tool, it requires one to be vulnerable and understand what's the, what's the emotional undercurrent and be able to express that, which takes some vulnerability. And when individuals or teams are not used to having a certain comfort with their own emotions and speaking about their own emotions, there might be reservations in employing the tool

Vipin: one other comment I'd make on what you said is, I think there can be a reservation where people feel like we're here to get our work done and get to business. And this feels like a personal conversation, or it feels like a distraction,

And so that. Misconception can be there you know, there's this, this real emphasis on how do we move as fast as we can. And so is this going to help us do that? And to us, this is a, an example of the value of slowing down at certain times to be able to go faster. So we say slow around the curves, in a race car metaphor.

But If you are carrying these, this kind of emotion, heightened emotional weight or reactions, but you're not addressing them, imagine how much Mindshare is going to wasted energy or in other places thinking about something that may or may, you may or may not be understanding correctly,

So to be able to actually slow down and talk about those so that you have alignment. When you move fastest is when there's full alignment and really pinch moments is, it's a tool to help us refine our alignment. And so I think there can be a reservation where people feel like this is, is this really going to help us go fast?

Michael: It's being long term thoughtful about efficiency

Rasanath: I typically think about that as effectiveness over efficiency. Always maximizing effectiveness And many times effectiveness can be efficient, but efficiency may not necessarily be effective. And one example of effectiveness is protecting the Trust in a relationship when you're moving really fast, you know, in a high stress environment or even in the household when the partners are really busy, there's just a lot going on.

What takes the toll usually is the fabric of trust in the relationship and repeated conversations where we are feeling triggered, but we're not talking about them in the moment or even outside of it erodes and starts to create cracks, which then over time. things are not efficient anymore because you're expending a lot more emotional energy.

The other reservation is once this tool has been adopted and how it's been used. So sometimes there can be over usage of pinch moments, meaning every time a conversation becomes difficult, or even if it's not going my way, you know, somebody can just exercise this tool and say, I'm experiencing a pinch moment right now.

And it will seem like Pinch Moments is becoming a way to hijack, hold everybody hostage in the conversation. So that is not necessarily a problem with the tool, but the application of the tool.

Vipin: And just as a benchmark, my co founders and I at SideTour, we use. I think I can remember roughly a handful of pinch moments that we talked about over a two year time span. And I think we could have used it more often, but it was quite judicious. When we saw opportunities to use it. So that's not a, like a, a prescription about frequency, but I think it's helpful for me to at least know how often did we employ something like this over time?

And those conversations were always really illuminating.

Michael: What's the purpose of using it as I'm having a pinch moment, as opposed to You are causing me to have a pinch moment. And this is along the lines of what we talked about with nonviolent communication, but I want to make sure that we highlight the specific language here

Vipin: Yeah, well, it starts with, I am feeling

a

Vipin: pinch, and I may hypothesize that Somebody else is feeling a pinch or I'm sensing that there may be a pinch with somebody else, but it starts with, I'm, if I'm feeling, if I'm actually feeling the pinch that I'm acknowledging that I'm feeling a pinch and then, it's important to talk about what is causing that pinch and, you know, what do you say you're pinching me or you're causing me to be pinched.

You're not taking responsibility for your own feeling and your own experience. So taking the response that this is something that I'm experiencing. And then you can talk about what is happening, what is being said. And it may be that something somebody else said was triggering to me, but the language of it's, I'm feeling a pinch moment and I want to talk about it.

It's taking ownership of. of my own experience and not, you know, it's very triggering to also start the conversation by pointing your finger at someone and laying blame. Like you're causing me to feel this way. the way you feel, you have to own that. And that's part of what's important here with this tool

Rasanath:

Michael: you might say, when you said this, I felt a pinch or I felt triggered in some way, but you're not saying that you caused me to feel this way.

Vipin: It's a very subtle distinction between the two things, the two sentences that you just shared.

Michael: Yeah, a subtle, but important one, because you're doing your best to remove the blame. It's possible that the other person could still feel blamed, but you're doing your best to remove the blame.

Rasanath: The hope here is to actually clear any misunderstandings that can very quickly develop into stories of reality.

This is

Michael: such an important point, and it was a thought that I had when we were talking about signs that a pinch moment is happening, so I'm really glad you brought this up because That's another sign that there's a pinch moment going on, is when I start making assumptions about what the other person is doing, or their intentions, or, as you use the word, I have some story about the other person, there's not a factual basis for that story, but I start emotionally feeling certain things that causes me to go down the path of creating a story about what the person is intending.

Okay. Thank you. That's right. Dippin, you're smiling.

Vipin: I have a very embarrassing, it's hard to remember exactly the pinch moments from 10 years ago with my co founders and side tour, but there's one that I remember very, uh, distinctly and I find it quite embarrassing. It was triggered by this conversation that you both were just having around misunderstanding in the story we start telling.

So I'll share this example. There were three of us. At co founders in the company and I knew one of them was, you know, one of my closest friends from graduate school. And the other was someone that was also a really good friend that I had worked with prior. So I was sort of the link between the three of us.

And as we started probably a year into the company, things had gotten really busy. And what I started observing was my two other co founders. They would go to lunch every day together, just the two of them, and they were not asking me if I wanted to join or inviting me to join them. And at first, I didn't make much of it.

And over time, as it happened for a week and longer, I started feeling really badly about this. I started feeling I mean, I had all these stories. I was telling myself, like I felt, I felt actually left out because it was, it was quite lonely in general. And then feeling like I'm not as connected to my two co founders.

Who I have very deep personal relationships with. It made me feel left out and like, they didn't like me as much. This is the embarrassing part of the storytelling that goes on. And I remember bringing this up with one of them in a, in a pinch moment conversation, he had just come back from lunch and. I just wanted to talk to him about it and it was really crazy because we had such an openness about when someone brings up a pinch moment to really listen and and see what's going on be there for the other person and I could see on his face as I shared what I was experiencing a look of such surprise and like wonderment.

It was so clear to me that there was not the story that I had in my mind was just completely not intentional at all. And as he started sharing what was going on for him, they saw how busy I was. And I was always meeting with people and I had all of these external things. And so they just didn't want to disturb me or cause me to feel like obligated to join them.

And we're trying to just give me space. And yet here, I told this whole story that was making me feel, have to have some tension with both of my co founders and just being able to, and I probably carried that with me for a few weeks. I don't know exactly how it played into the conversations that we had on Monday nights, we would have our founders meeting and we would be talking about.

You know, the business and I'm sure that I was carrying some of this tension, but to be able to bring it up. And talk through and see, I've completely misunderstood what was actually happening in the dynamic and it released a whole lot for me. I mean, There was periods in that time where I wanted to join them for lunch, but I was waiting to see if they would invite me.

It's so crazy. And then I let all that go. I'm just like, guys, I'm coming with you for lunch. You're great. I mean, literally look at all this. This is why it's so embarrassing. I mean, I was carrying this stuff and I was like testing and seeing, do they still, do they like me? And I'm like, you know, you're, there's all this tension from trying to, I mean, just all the stress from trying to build something, create something.

I don't need this additional, but having the, the pinch moment framework helped me bring it up in a way, have a language and a framework to be able to discuss it. And then clear my story in a way that, I mean, I can laugh about it now. It's quite embarrassing to think about, you know, you're trying to start build a business and you're sitting there wondering if your co founders like you as much as you, as you thought they should.

Oh gosh.

Michael: That's great. Rasanath, we can never forget to invite Vip into lunch.

It wasn't just a single moment there, but it was, it was a series of pinches that you experienced,

Vipin: Yeah, I mean, I would say it was all related to, it was one specific B. Maybe it was multiple lunches, but it was probably one pinch that felt like it was getting like stronger and stronger.

And it's finally at the courage to just. To bring it up. And it was, you know, it's quite a vulnerable position as we were talking about earlier to just, you know, it's. It's kind of like the equivalent of an adult raising their hand and being like, do you still like me? Are you still my friend? I mean, it sounds kind of ridiculous, but these are the things that can be going on subtly or grossly in conversations.

And I think without having the framework, I might have found it really difficult to have that conversation,

Michael: Yeah. It also, your example beautifully illustrates how pinch moments are indicative of some need that we have that is not met. And as Roshan said, it's very vulnerable to talk about these things because what we're doing is we're talking about needs that we have, which. As we talked about in previous episodes, make us feel very needy, which is a hard position to be in.

And here you have a very competent, strong, successful person talking, essentially having a need for belonging within a group that he may have felt like, I should already belong to this group. Here's this thing. I formed the group and there's only three of us.

Vipin: Yeah, it feels really needy. It feels really needy.

Rasanath: Rosinoth,

Michael: any examples that you would share from your own life or from coaching clients around the usefulness of this tool?

Rasanath: I've used it many times in my partnership at home. And what I have found many times in using this is how unexpectedly we fall into conversations that are These were not meant to be pinch moment conversations at all.

The unexpected nature of how the pinch is felt has always been surprising for me. Last week we were shopping and we were standing outside waiting for a car. It was cold and, you know, I just started talking to my wife about things that I'm going through internally. And, you know, she went on to, you know, Like she wanted to make me feel better.

And so she said something that immediately pinched me. And at that moment I said, I'm not, I'm feeling, I'm feeling pinched right now. I'm not feeling good about this conversation and it just let me express. what was going on underneath when I heard her response. And then immediately she, she said, you know, that was not my intention.

Actually, I wanted to make you feel better. And I'm sorry if I, if I overstepped. And then she said something that was actually very helpful. She said, I want you to have this conversation again with me when you're ready because I'll show up differently. And we had the same conversation on Saturday night and it was just so different.

Michael: what did she see in you that made her suspectthat you weren't ready to have that conversation?

Rasanath: Because I, I shut down and when I expressed she saw, she saw that I was actually like closing up. And she realized that her response had led to something, and she took responsibility, she cleared up the intention, it was a very, she said, my intention genuinely was to actually make you feel better, but it didn't come out right, and I didn't read how it was, what you were, I should have waited to listen fully.

But you know what, I'm not going to force you to have this conversation right away because I take responsibility and if I have to live with the fact that this is what I caused you, so be it. But when you're ready, I want to have this conversation again and I'll show it differently. And we did it. We had it again.

It was just very helpful. And I thanked her for having the conversation differently because it was very helpful for me. But without this framework, it could have just escalated like quick, like I'm saying something to her. She then responding from a very different place. Me not being able to have that conversation like shut, basically shutting down.

And you know how many times I can say in relationships that people can actually feel like, you know what, I'm never going to bring this part ever again into this dynamic and this conversation. You know what it does to the relationship, how tragic it can be. To the relationship, and it happens, it happens ever so silently.

Michael: What were your unmet needs there that were shown to you as a result of you seeing that you were being pitched?

Rasanath: My unmet need was to be heard and understood.

And my wife wanted to make me feel better immediately. And in the process, what it did was it prevented me from expressing fully and exploring fully what was going on.

Michael: Thank you. Thank you for such a personal example. Actually, both of you.

Rasanath: And the reason why I chose the personal example is this, these kinds of things are unexpectedly we trip on. It's just at the most. You're shopping, you're coming home, you know, you're just that it just actually it's a it's an environment where you're just spending personal time, right?

Unexpectedly, you just fall into something that suddenly feels escalated.

Michael: Yeah, just a few days ago for me I was taking my son to school and my wife gave me an umbrella and that and that was such a triggering pinch moment for me Because my need there was to be trusted It was like I was doing some service for her and she gave me this umbrella and all she was worried about was the kid getting wet And being cold and I took it in a way That was, hey, don't you trust me?

Michael: But anyway, just to illustrate your point how this can happen in the littlest ways. So, we've talked a lot about pinch moments, how they can show up. What can organizations, teams, families do in order to make this a part of their culture?

Vipin: They can set this up intentionally as a framework that we can use to restore communication and understanding whenever we need it. It's possibly being eroded and you can do that in, or in an organizational setting and a team setting in a, in a group of friends and a family setting. So I think it might, it will be useful to actually talk through the rules of engagement, so to speak.

Like when we set this up side tour, we talked about exactly like a little bit about the process. And I think that would be helpful to share. What do you think?

Michael: That sounds great.

Vipin: Well, obviously someone had given us the tool of pinch moments, then we had sort of talked about how are we going to actually implement this on our team.

And so our rules were this, that as soon as we, one person recognizes a pinch moment, we call it out. I'm feeling a pinch moment. And then you give the other person or other people. A chance to respond and by response, like sometimes what would happen is I might raise my hand. I'm, I'm feeling a pinch moment and the other, it might be surprised.

Like I, the other two are not feeling any pinch whatsoever, or they couldn't tell that I was feeling a pinch. And that's also just helpful information to know. So like, but yeah, but great. Let's pause the conversation and talk about, uh, The pinch that you were feeling. So, you know, to me, it's just a help.

It's helpful when I express, I'm feeling a pinch moment before I just run on word to hear all the things that are causing me to feel pinched. I'm just checking in with the others and giving them a chance to respond to my raising my hand about, about the pinch moment. And then when we pause the first channel, as we talk about the first conversation.

We start the second, which is the meta communication or the meta conversation, which is the conversation about the conversation or the communication about the communication. And here we're talking about what is it that caused me to feel pinched in this case, or if I am sensing a pinch in somebody else, what might be causing that person to feel pinched before we go back to the original topic.

And sometimes that pinch. Is too charged So we may have waited for a long time, or it's just the, the emotions are really heightened and we're actually not able to talk about the pinch moment in the moment. And so what we agreed to do at side tour was if that happens, we agree to discuss the meta conversation at another time, but we make a commitment that we'll do that within the next one or two days at most.

We're still pausing the underlying conversation because it doesn't really, it's not healthy or helpful to keep just pushing forward, but especially if things are so heightened that we can't even talk about the pinch moment in that moment. And whether we talk about it in the moment, or we wait a day or two, when we're having that meta conversation, our primary goal for all of us is to Investing in understanding the other people involved, understanding their intentions, and then honestly sharing our own.

I mean, Rasnath gave a great example of how that worked with Him and him and his partner at home and just immediately sharing what was my intention, and obviously it didn't land well and how that even had a loosening effect on what he was holding on to. But then having a, and the next step, when can we come back to close the loop on this?

so we, we now have a slide at. you, we've used in workshops around pinch moments and we've used in coaching sessions, but having a very systematic way to approach. Pinch moments is is helpful because then it gives you a framework and a language to if I just say I'm feeling a pinch moment that conveys a lot.

Once you have established the system for addressing these kinds of things without me having to say a lot more than that, and then I can go right into what was causing the pinch. Everybody has a shared context, which is incredibly helpful.

Michael: Very helpful. So yeah, we have a series of steps now. That you just illustrated, to call it out, to allow the other person to reflect.

Then to

Vipin: pause 1 channel, pause 1 channel,

Michael: go to the 2nd channel to be able to talk about the meta conversation. And then, um, if further pausing is necessary, because it's so charged, we can do that. Or if it's actually possible to speak about it. And then in that moment, then there's an opportunity for a full conversation about what's going on before going back to the content or the task at hand.

Vipin: Thank you for summarizing that back. I have found that even just the act of raising a pinch moment for me has created a release. Because there's something, something that I'm holding onto and just acknowledging that with the people involved, I can take a deeper breath. I feel like my shoulders are, you know, I feel them just what's the opposite of rising, falling.

I feel them fall down my back and still there can be tension. Cause I'm like, now I have to actually talk about this thing, but I've It's a big step because then I know how this process will now unfold and I, and I have trusted relationships with my partners to be able to feel inspired that this conversation will be beneficial to, to all of us.

I mean, I think that's another important ingredient. There has to be a level of trust. With the people that you're having this understanding with, because if not, like Rosalind gave an example earlier about how it can be misused or overused. you're going to make yourself vulnerable when you raise a pinch moment, there has to be a level of safety of trust to be able to do that.

Michael: Yes. I think this is such a huge point because. If you do this, and, our other partner Hari will often share this, if you're vulnerable in the wrong situation and you don't feel like that vulnerability gets received and it gets taken advantage or stepped on in some way, then you'll be very unlikely to be vulnerable again, in that sort of way.

but that's not a reason not to use that. We still want to encourage courage and also being a cause in the matter of creating an environment where this is something that can be talked about in a smooth way.

And. To be able to create environments of trust.

Vipin: Yeah. And you actually, by doing this, well, you can build trust, whatever foundation of trust already exists to be able to have honest conversations about what's really going on builds trust. It builds a healthy culture, builds better communication. It builds more productivity as we talked about before.

Michael: so as we start to come to a close here, and this is 1 of the things we were debating before we started recording, and I was talking about how.

I use this in a little bit of a different way because I, I'm not always using it in an organizational context or even a team or a family context where everyone has a shared language to speak about pinch moments. But how can we use pinch moments just as a tool for self awareness with ourselves, even if we're not necessarily going to use the term in our, in a conversation with someone else?

Vipin: We can't call out a pinch moment. In ourselves without self awareness, right? Like we, we talked earlier about some awareness of manifestations in the body or in the speed of our speech, something that's telling us we're experiencing something. And so having this language of I'm feeling a pinch can be helpful to know, okay, let me pause.

Cause sometimes it's the same thing, even with me individually, you know, we give the example that like, You see something on social media and it gives you and it pinches you. And then you're just, you're feeling discomfort, but you're just continuing to do whatever you're doing. And maybe you're hitting the accelerator and you're trying to do more and prove yourself.

it can work in exactly the same way in an individual setting. I'm recognizing that I'm feeling a pinch and then doing the investigation to see where's that coming from? What's driving this pinch and what is the story that I'm telling myself that's causing this?

And, and the assumption, what assumptions am I making that are part of this story? I mean, this goes back to stimulus, the space between stimulus and response, and the idea that like, I have certain beliefs. that may be part of me feeling this pinch. And then if I can examine those a little more closely, slow down and examine those, I might substitute a bunch of beliefs.

Michael: I like that. I like that a lot. what are some final thoughts that you want to leave our audience with?

Rasanath: I think in my personal experience, the pinch moments. using the language of pinch moments has really helped de escalate very heightened emotional conversations that can, that have the potential of, hey, we can hurt the other person, you know, and we are, it's like when you hit the accelerator harder and you can, you can hurt somebody and you can never really recover from that place.

You don't have to necessarily use the word pinch if that doesn't resonate, but something around what can act as a flag for yourself and for other people to create the space for understanding what's happening emotionally.

especially in the light of a high paced, high intensity debate conversation is incredibly helpful. I'm always struck by is the simplicity of the tool, which can also lead to its dismissal many times because we are looking for like something much more sophisticated

Thank you.

Vipin: Yeah. You know, I think that the word pinch is very powerful here. because, you know, we talked about this earlier. If you were to, if I were to say, Hey, something that you said or did cause me to feel really triggered. Yeah. How do you feel versus me saying I'm experiencing a pinch moment because the idea of a pinch is relatively innocuous, you know, like, it feels like as a kid, something like pinched you.

And so, Michael, you were sharing earlier before we started recording, like, in some ways, we feel pinches all the time. It doesn't rise to such a big deal. Like I can, I feel pinched. Like we can talk about this instead of it being like, wow, this huge heavy weight that we're going to have this conversation about, and I think that like the risks of ignoring these.

Moments is that the pinches that are relatively innocuous turn into punches So like instead of me feeling pinched I feel punched in the face now That's a lot harder to recover from and so when that starts happening when we ignore the pinches now We get triggered more easily, more quickly in the same relationship, right?

And this is where we were talking about earlier, that cracks become fissures. I mean, they're widening and we're not addressing them. And, and I mean, I think about the example I shared, if we're ignoring those moments, we're continuing to live and operate on misunderstandings. Right. Well, I mean, why would we want to do that?

And we're now responding to the relationship issues, rather than the content of what we hope to be discussing instead. So I think we always want to work on our, our relationships and be in more alignment with each other. And I think that this is like, I love what you said, Ross. Now it's, it's such a simple tool that we almost.

Might be quick to dismiss it, but I, when, when we first heard it, you're like immediately felt like this.

It's

Vipin: gold and we found it to be over 10 years, you can say that this simple tool is, is really gold in a relationship.

Michael: Well, thank you both for this conversation. I learned a lot. I feel even more inspired. Which is saying a lot because I felt very inspired coming into this conversation to use the tool, so I feel even more inspired to continue to use it in my own life and in my relationships with clients. And Vipin, thank you for bringing this tool into Upbuild, and also it was so sweet when you shared in the opening about the attribution and feeling like you've been given a gift with this tool and, and.

There's some responsibility to pass it on, and you have done that in a big way. And I think it's benefited many, many people, of course, so much within our own team, but also in many of the organizations and individuals that we work with. Thank you everyone for listening to this conversation, and we'll see you back here for another episode sometime soon.

Thank you.