Moral Superiority: The Cost of Needing to Be “Better” Than Others

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Michael: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Upbuilding the Self. This is Michael Sloyer, and I am here with Hari Prasada and Rasanath. For our topic today, we are going to be talking about moral superiority, and there is not a single person that I know who doesn't suffer from moral superiority

And I use the word suffer very intentionally, and we're going to get into all of that. But I want to get us started by each of us going around and sharing what are one or two vivid and embarrassing examples. how we act in a morally superior way in our own lives. So, Rasanath, we can get started with you.

Could you share a couple of examples of moral superiority from your life?

Rasanath: The biggest example that comes to mind is, in 2017 when my wife and I were taking care of my mother in law, She was dying from cancer. And the example that I'm going to give is not directly related to us taking care of her, but the time was very important in terms of what I was surrounded by, And the example is specifically related to what happened before that. I had just come out of a situation where I had some very bad conflict with individuals that I had relationships for a long time in my life. I deeply trusted them and loved them too. And the exit for me from that situation was triggered by a series of events where I felt that my success in my role had created envy and these individuals had acted on their envy to somehow oust me.

I was carrying the resentment about it for a while. And then at some point in time, I stopped feeling the resentment. And I thought that I had forgiven them. And it was this time when I was taking care of my mother in law, that one of those individuals sent out an email that triggered something in me.

And I was very, very uncomfortable. And when I looked deeper, I realized that what I had thought as forgiveness was not really forgiveness.

The reason why I had quote unquote moved on was because I felt morally superior to these individuals because They were envious of me, that they had acted on their envy, but I am not that kind of a person.

Michael: So not only are you not somebody who's envious, but you also I didn't retaliate.

Rasanath: I didn't respond the same

Michael: way.

In fact, you forgave them. So you thought, and so you felt a sense of moral superiority.

Rasanath: But then this email, just like that whole thing just collapsed. And what I had to see behind was that that moral superiority was just covering the resentment.

The second example that I can give is, in the work that we do I'm not exempt from feeling overshadowed by somebody else, especially if they're more famous, and then there is all of this self doubt and competitiveness that emerges.

And then when somebody says something that may be true about the person that you feel overshadowed by, it suddenly gives you a sense of joy. I've experienced that numerous times when a third person says like, Oh, you know, I didn't really feel that this person was.

authentic, I have experienced in myself a sense of like, oh yeah, that is true. And a desire to speak more about that.

You might be actively looking for evidence against the other person that makes you feel better.

Hari Prasada: My experience of moral superiority is that it's ever present. It's not something which just kind of shows up in some way at some time, but it's always there. And why? Because the voice of the ego is always there and the ego is always trying to be better than other people.

What is moral superiority? It's, I'm a better person and I'm really happy to be a better person than somebody else. And as many people as possible, please. That's the ego's role is driving moral superiority.

So, you know, if I'm doing a lot in the home for my wife, then I feel like, yeah, okay, now I'm sort of unassailable. I'm good. And like, I've gotten a secure higher ground.

I often give the example of when I would clean the bathrooms regularly, And if I didn't feel like I was sufficiently appreciated for that, then I'd feel like, oh my god, you know, I'm doing so much, I'm so good, and This is not being seen, and that feeling follows me all the time.

Michael: So what's the moral superiority in that example?

Hari Prasada: That I feel like I'm doing so much. I'm so good for doing so much selflessly in service, and I'm not being appreciated for it, and I'm also tolerant of not being appreciated, but then that can crumble very easily. So, I feel like I'm on the higher ground that now because I give so much, I'm good in this relationship and maybe better because are you doing all of those things?

Michael: My example is pretty straightforward. I left Goldman Sachs and Joined up build I moved from a career that was highly lucrative in the finance world to a career where I am serving and helping other people.

And it's so easy for me, especially when the validation is coming in for that move. Somebody who I just met might say, Oh, wow, that's really interesting. I'm fascinated by this story. Tell me more. And I can just tell that And my interpretation of what they're saying is, Oh, you must be a really good person.

I can just feel the moral superiority creeping in of like, yeah, I'm a pretty good person that I made a career move like that. it's embarrassing to say it out loud. I don't think I've ever said it out loud.

Like I'm saying it out loud right now,

Rasanath: If you were to distinguish just superiority from moral superiority, there is something in moral superiority about an actual character high ground. you may have skills, and somebody can develop the skills.

Developing character is much harder. Character is also something that is much deeper. And so what the ego is trying to do is establish its foundations on something that it thinks is more unmovable. And more important, much more important. Right. And we can universally agree that character is much more important, even when sometimes we don't necessarily see that being acted upon.

Michael: We can all universally, especially in roles of leadership, but in general. We can all agree that character is the most important trait for any human being. And so the ego is very tricky because now it's trying to establish its sense of identity based on my character being better than yours. So the ego is using character, which in truth is the most important thing. And then it is. twisting it to feel good about itself.

Rasanath: That's right. Now, here is the other thing with characters. Many times there is truth to it in the sense that one person may have more integrity than the other person. This is what makes it so gray because it's quite possible at some point in time, if you take a point in time, then one person may actually show up with more integrity, either situationally or characterologically, show up with more integrity than the other person.

Michael: Okay, so I'm going to be the guinea pig here with my example. So what is the truth there in the difference in character?

Rasanath: I think you made a choice. You actually left something that was financially very lucrative and work for what is genuinely a mission based company, a mission based organization. That takes a certain strength of character.

You know, that takes for someone to really answer a call to purpose.

Michael: It also may be true that the other person who I'm speaking to or I'm feeling better than may not have made that move. Maybe they're still in a career that's largely driven by financial reward.

Rasanath: Now, where it becomes tricky is how suddenly I see them as lower species. It happens in a very subtle way. And I've seen this in many times in nonprofits where nonprofits talk about for profits. It's true. A lot of for profits, you can see a certain kind of greed that's present. And non profits look at for profits.

I have been, I've worked at a bank. I have experienced this very directly where people, Oh, you are one of them but then what you also see in non profits is just because I work for a non profit, I feel like I don't have to be competent at things. By the sheer fact that I'm working in a mission driven organization makes me a better person and you can't give me any feedback.

I've seen a lot of that.

Michael: Or that I'm immune from having greed, even if I have greed within the non profit. I mean, I see this with myself in the work that we do. I'm not immune from greed. in the structure of up build, I still have my conditioning from the past. So just because the career switch has been made, it doesn't mean that some of that stuff still isn't there.

There's also a void here, which is just aching to be filled The reason why I am propping myself up is because I'm not feeling satisfied. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to do that. There would be nothing to prove, nothing to establish.

Hari Prasada: So, I'm sacrificing so much. I'm doing all of these things. I'm so good. I should be seen for that, or I should see myself in that way and be satisfied, but I'm not. I'm actually not. And therefore, the sense of superiority to relativize and feel like, well, at least I'm better than these people. At least I'm better than so many people.

Maybe I'm better than the whole world. Maybe I'm the best person on the planet. That's what we're hoping for. That's what our ego is hoping for because it's not satisfied with what it's doing and

Michael: how it is being. Yeah, that's a powerful statement that I'm aching for something and I'm not satisfied.

That's the crux of the whole thing. You've shared before on this podcast that a superiority complex is just the flip side of an inferiority complex.

Rasanath: Well, also what happens is when I, and this is one of the other times when moral superiority creeps in, is I have genuinely tried to do the right thing, but I repeatedly don't get seen or appreciated for it.

So initially it starts off with, you see how tricky the ego is, right? I genuinely do the right thing, but deep down, I want to actually be appreciated for it or seen for it. It's actually just being seen for it. And then I'm not. In fact, somebody who is not living up to those standards gets the praise.

Michael: or it might just be, I'm not getting it in the exact way, in the exact quantity, in the exact details of all of it.

Rasanath: Yes, but then amp up the activity. I actually do more of it, and I still feel like I'm just not seen for it. somebody else who is not even trying to live up to those values. is getting all the attention. And what I have to then acknowledges. Well, why am I so fixated on the attention?

And when I don't see that, then I am now going, entering into a territory of self doubt where I'm wondering, well, should I be even living with these values? Because somebody else is getting away all the time and the only way I can then continue doing what I'm doing, quote unquote, live up to my values is when I can feel better than the other person.

Hari Prasada: But is the person who's getting the attention in that case Satisfied with it. That's the question. So if the person were satisfied, why is it always more and more and more? And for us, if we feel seen and appreciated for what we're doing, that is huge, no doubt. but at the end of the day, we need to understand.

That even that is not enough to fill the void. I'm still wanting more, and I'm still going towards moral superiority

Michael: to fill the void. You're saying, Kari, even when I get seen, there still can be moral superiority? Oh, absolutely.

Hari Prasada: And the ego doesn't go away just because I felt seen by somebody that doesn't happen.

No, I want more. I want to still feel like I'm better than everybody. Yes. See, even people are seeing it.

Rasanath: So here's where the most refined and yet most tragic ways in which moral superiority comes into play is, you know, in the realm of fairness. Now, I'm actually really trying to play fair. I'm actually trying to do what is right.

And the response that I get from the outside world is just every time it questions my sensibility around what is fair and what is right. And, you know, there is a way in which it creates a lot of self doubt. Am I even doing the right thing? Why am I doing this? We all know what the dilemma of fairness feels like.

And when that is not reconciled, that is not answered. The only way you can survive is by feeling better than others. You see how dark this is, how twisted this can get. That is the only way I can keep my trust, my faith alive in those values. Because I live those values, I am a better person than other people.

Now my living of those values have been relativized.

Michael: So when you were just sharing what you shared, it reminded me a lot of the activism culture and what can happen in those cultures.

Rasanath: Yeah, absolutely. you can understand the suffering here is I'm really trying to do the right thing. And when people who are not doing the right thing are constantly getting away, it makes me actually doubt the entire concept of justice. So how do I continue acting justly when I am doubting my own set of values?

I the ego steps in and says, you know what? Okay. Let me help you. You're better than the other person.

Hari Prasada: Because I need the identity of I'm a good person. I'm a righteous person. I do the right thing and the ego then says, okay, now you have your place in the world, but it never really says that it's always saying you will have in the future.

You will have your place in the world. You will have your solid identity. You will be enough. if you do this, if you do that, if you do this, and it's a treadmill and it never actually lands, but then we have to reassure ourselves. Yes, I am enough. Yes, I do feel I'm such a good person, but it doesn't work. It doesn't actually work.

It's a pretense.

Rasanath: And you'll see the difference between in activism where someone is actually so rooted in their values, where they see activism as not like a, you know, a validation thing. They actually just want to do the right thing, whether they are seen for it or not.

And it has its impact. It may not scale as fast as I would like for it to be, But I am just very contented knowing that I'm living consistently with my values versus activism that is so desperate for attention.

Michael: What would you say that the activists who say, well, in order for things to actually change, I need to get attention?

Rasanath: Well, this is the slippery slope. What do I really want? Do I want change or do I want attention? And this is not an easy thing to decipher. And this is where moral superiority provides enough ammunition for me to turn a blind eye towards my desire for fame versus actual change. It becomes murky. Which is why it becomes so critical that I surround myself with people who can actually call me up, genuinely.

And when I have a higher ground, when I have moral superiority, you know what I'm also doing simultaneously? I'm alienating a lot of people because I feel better than them. So I'm alone. And when I'm alone, that's exactly the trap.

Hari Prasada: Also, if you don't see the moral superiority that is pursuing you when you're trying to serve purely, when you're being an activist for the pure cause, so to speak, if you don't see how there's still something that is following you, then That means it likely has you as I share about the ego when I don't see it.

I'm not celebrating. I'm sounding the alarm because if I'm not seeing it, it means it is running me. It means that I'm in it. So it's someone who's actually doing the right thing for the right reasons in a pure way. We'll see undoubtedly that there is something that is following me. And the only way that they can helpfully deal with that and not have it affect their actions and their character is by saying, that is not me.

I do not accept this. I hear the voice.

Michael: Thank you very much. I do not accept it. So just to anchor some things that we've been talking about, one of the questions that I had coming into this episode that I planned to ask you guys was, what is good about moral superiority? In other words, what does it give us that we all keep going after,

And what I'm getting from our conversation so far. If I were to sum it up in just a few words, is this identity of I'm good or I'm right?

Hari Prasada: And I'm enough because we're all feeling I'm not enough and trying to convince ourselves, yes, you are. And so the, the idea of moral superiority is the yes, you are, you are enough.

It's the self pep talk that allows me to live with myself and try to not let the dissatisfaction overcome me.

Rasanath: One of the things that I have observed about model superiority. is when there is a time where you are really thinking, well, I'm really trying to live these values and somebody else is not living them and they are getting away.

They're actually getting everything they want and nobody calls them out. And meanwhile, I'm just like striving and struggling to live by these values. And I started entering the space of like, should I just give them up? Moral superiority acts as a savior. It gives you, you know, Somehow because you feel like, you know what?

I'm not like the other person. I'm better than the other person. It gives you just enough to actually stick to your values at that moment. But here's the caution around it. You can't build living on those values around that feeling of relative superiority while momentarily it may actually prevent you from compromising your values.

Michael: Okay. I have to bring a specific example into this because we need to unpack it, which is Over the last bunch of years, I've made big shifts in my diet to eat less and less meat over time. And I feel very happy about that. I feel satisfied with that. And there's 100 percent moral superiority. I feel it every day.

I can see the people where it's most directed at. And what you just said, I felt very seen when you said it because it's That sense of pride is enough to keep that behavior going, which I think is a good behavior. So help me understand what you just said at the end about it not being sustainable. I can just say

Hari Prasada: that I think that can act as a crutch.

For the time where the habit is unsteady, if you're doing it for the right reasons, then you're in touch with something, perhaps that is bigger than the ego, hopefully, and I can say for you, I know that that is the case for our listeners. We should make sure that is important. We have to make sure that it's coming from a deeper place and not coming from ego.

But when there is something which is really intrinsically valuable for its own sake, and we're doing it for that reason, but we're also being sustained in the interim before we feel solidly, I would say, like we're inhabiting that value or that action consistently, then the crutch can help us. But we should be very, as Rasanath was saying, we should be very cautious about that crutch.

you don't want to stay on crutches for the rest of your life if you're healing from a leg injury, right? You can use that for some time to get to a steady ground. But if the value does not become intrinsically valuable, Then we have to reexamine what's going on because then the very purpose behind why we're doing it is at stake.

Michael: I love that image of the crutch that you both shared, and how we can use a crutch, but only for a period of time, because if we use it beyond the usefulness, then it can actually, in the case of a leg injury, create More problems for the leg so instead we need to See the value as intrinsically valuable and work towards that

Rasanath: this is I think What I experienced when I gave the first example back in 2017 about forgiveness and then recognizing That was not forgiveness When you suddenly see the crutch, you can't feel superior anymore because you realize, actually I'm not better than the other because I'm not rooted in my own values.

It's not even, see at that point in time, it's not even beneficial.

Michael: Well it's beneficial because it creates humility.

Rasanath: Actually becomes humility. So you see how quickly, if you acknowledge the crutch, it actually becomes something that you have to really be humble about. You can't continue on the crutch for a long time.

You can't. As soon as you see it's a crutch, you can't walk with it. But when you don't see it as a crutch, then you can walk with it for a very long time, but it's not sustainable, right? So as soon as you see that it's a crutch, then you also see what's underneath it. You actually see your own shallowness.

Hari Prasada: You see your own unsteadiness, which is what then you have to take responsibility for actually. I may see that I'm living these values, but the fact that I'm struggling so much with the, well, should I be living these or not, is a sign that I'm weak and I'm not better than somebody else.I just want to say it may not be a conscious struggle. Should I live this or not? Many people feel so rooted in their values. How could I live a different way? I would be a bad person if I lived in a different way, but still that seeking moral superiority that clinging to moral superiority is the clue that we're not yet steeped in the value for its own sake.

The fact that we have to feel better about ourselves. is the litmus test for how much we are not yet steeped in the value, really.

Rasanath: Usually when I see my own sense of moral superiority, the best thing I can say is moral superiority is the last straw for the ego to maintain. It's when you start seeing your own tendencies towards moral superiority and start really looking for it.

That's when you truly declare the death of the ego and the ego will rebel. It will retort in ways that are pretty strong. And so this is the zone where when you have finally decided to dismantle the ego, you have to look for moral superiority. The ego is not going to take it kindly. And it is going to, you're going to enter into a zone of conscious suffering,

Hari Prasada: This is the stuff that we don't want to see. We're allergic to it in others. We don't want to see it in ourselves.

Just keep what's under the hood under the hood, please. Let me be a good person. Let me do things in the world. Let me be dynamic. Let me be happy enough with myself, which I'm not, by the way, which is the whole reason we have to talk about this. But I, at least I can convince myself again and again and again.

Yes, I am. Yes, I am. Yes, I am. And until I get exhausted with that, I just keep doing it. So we are allergic to seeing this in others and we don't want to see it in ourselves. And guess what's happening. Other people are allergic to seeing it in us and they don't want to see it in themselves. That's how the world operates.

And it's an untenable situation. If we actually want the real satisfaction of the heart and of heart to heart connection with other people. If we want to have a place in life where we feel the maximum amount of connection with ourselves and others, this has to go, it has to go to the extent that I say, I see this.

and I don't accept it. I see it and I don't accept it. I'm leaning into the real thing, not the voice of, yes, you're so good. Yes, you're so good. Yes, you're so good.

Rasanath: Now, I can also say with all honesty that when we do make a decision or resolve to dismantle the moral superiority piece, we actually realize how helpless we are in front of our egos.

It is truly the most humbling experience you can have. And that battle with the ego is the most difficult battle you can fight, which is why I said you enter into the zone of conscious suffering, which I think is the only corridor to the true self. It's the only corridor towards actual spirituality without which there is really no access to what our deepest self, our truest self, the spirit is.

Michael: And this can come from anywhere and it can be on both sides of the same issue. Hari, I'm thinking about an example that you share about a specific personality type in the Enneagram workshop that we do where somebody's saying everyone should make their bed and they're taking the moral high ground because that's what good people do.

And then the other person is looking at that person and saying, You make your bed? That's such a waste of time. You should be out saving the whales. Right? The healthy people look at the unhealthy people and say, you guys are so lazy. The unhealthy people look at the healthy people and say you guys care so much about how you look

The hard workers look at the lazy people and say you guys are so lazy. The lazy people look at the hard workers and say you guys are so shallow that you need all of this money or this validation. I mean, it's everywhere and on every side of every issue.

Hari Prasada: And everything in between. The spectrum is also there.

And when I'm in the middle of the spectrum, I'm so happy that I'm so balanced. Look at how

Michael: balanced I am. In the political arena, people love to say I'm independent. it's

Hari Prasada: all about identities. All of this stuff is about identities. And it's actually crazy.

It's not based on reality. It's based on self concepts that just are there to pacify a hole in my heart.

Rasanath: You know, when I say, Oh, you know, I'm so non judgmental and so many are judgmental. I'm judged. It is pervasive, it is so pervasive, which is why to actually uproot it to free ourselves of this is so hard because in it is the last straws and perhaps the strongest hold of our egos.

We have to see the hypocrisy in it. Or another way of saying it is how we've framed it in a past episode. I dislike in you what I dislike in me. We have to see, even if it's not exactly the same thing and exactly the same flavor, there's something we're feeling the moral high ground above somebody else.

Michael: But that's actually something that we have inside of us in some way.

Rasanath: There is no better place for hypocrisy to hide than in moral superiority. and you see this because you see how, you know, when you talk about corporate social responsibility or DEI in organizations, I mean, you see billboards where companies that you wouldn't necessarily think of as like moral.

are putting billboards on how they're helping the environment. There is the whole PR campaign around giving.

Hari Prasada: also in our landscape of oppression and super, super high octane emotions around issues, which is, it seems to be increasing all the time. We are afraid to look at moral superiority because we feel the necessity is just dealing with the issues.

And why we're dealing with the issues because we have to deal with them because it's the right thing to do, but we're not able to see where it's coming from on the deepest level. And to deal with the ego, it's almost like, no, no, no, no, no. We just have to deal with what's going on in the world. This is the stuff that matters and everybody should be doing the right thing.

And these people are not doing the right thing. And I'm going to do the right thing. And these people are with me and they're doing the right thing. And it creates so much divisiveness and so much unconsciousness and emotional volatility, and we don't see it.

And it's demonizing, vilifying, or just failing to see nuance because the emotions are so high and there's such an identity around, well, I'm doing the right thing and you ought to also, and you need to be schooled in that. And there are truths here. There are things that people need to be educated on.

There are right and wrong things that are happening and they have to be dealt with. But how we deal with them and from what place we're coming from will determine everything. We will never, ever achieve what we're looking for if we don't look at the ego in ourselves and we just keep pointing fingers for trying to deal with things on the external plane.

These are spiritual issues. These are not material issues. If you try to solve it on the material plane, you will be forever frustrated and you will point to, well, this progress was made, this progress was made, but not enough, not enough, not enough. That will go on eternally.

Michael: So how do we balance standing up for what we believe in and what is the right thing, but still avoid the sense of moral superiority?

Hari Prasada: So in my experience, both in myself and in working with people who are, you know, social change makers, you know, in the field of politics, who genuinely want to actually stand up for the right thing.

Rasanath: The one thing that has become very clear to me is standing up for the right thing, the ego gets bored of it at a certain point. The ego doesn't have enough capacity to actually stand up for the right thing in a sustained way. and it is hard. I know having talked to these people how much darkness they experience because of lack of reciprocity, self doubt,

And mind you, these are people who are extremely successful in leading movements and experience a lot of darkness and helplessness because of what they want to stand up for and how against the grain it actually transforms into resentment. And then that gives rise to moral superiority. I've had to do a lot of work on resentment with some of those people.

And what I have clearly understood is that if you want to stand up for the right thing, the first thing you recognize is I don't have the strength to be able to stand up sustainably for the right thing. And then you become humble. There is no way other than depending on a higher power to truly stand up for the right thing.

So when you say that, you know, how do we stand up for the right thing? the right thing cannot be sustained based on the ego. It can't. TheThe right thing can only be sustained on the level of the spirit.

Michael: We talked earlier about how, if we can really internalize those values as actual values, we said earlier that the value has to become intrinsically valuable.

And so, why is that not enough? Why do we need to also depend on the spirit?

Rasanath: When a value becomes intrinsically valuable, when you use the word intrinsic, see, for the ego, there is nothing intrinsic. It needs validation from the outside world. It just does. It just needs it. When a value has to become truly intrinsic, it can only function on the level of who we are intrinsically, which is the spirit.

And so to me, the only pathway here was going towards the real self, because that is the only place where we can sustainably work from a place of values.

Michael: So spiritual practice and faith. It gives us ground to be able to feel that feeling of enough ness that we're all looking for, separate from being better than anybody else, or getting validation.

Rasanath: C. S. Lewis, in his book, Mere Christianity, begins the first chapter by talking about the concept of morality.

And I think that is very fundamental to our understanding of what is right. We can't do any activity without feeling the rightness of it. Even someone who's doing the most atrocious, most evil activity somehow internally has to feel justified in doing it.

Michael: People feel I'm in pain enough myself where I'm justified doing it.

Rasanath: And it's either conscious or it's subconscious. And when you say something is subconscious, that only means that it has deeply embedded itself, that belief has deeply embedded itself, that you're not even consciously aware of it. So the sense of rightness, the sense of being able to do things only when we feel that it's actually right, is very innate in us, and we have to ask ourselves the question, well, where does it come from?

It's the quality of the spirit. It can only do something when it feels aligned with what's right, and what is right means a connection with the divine. That is the source of rightness. Now, when that source is disconnected, when we are disconnected from it, then we have to manufacture rightness. We have to.

There is no other way to work because we have to feel it. It's innate. So then the ego takes the role. And then that's when you have all the issues around moral superiority. that's why the dismantling of the ego with respect to moral superiority is the highest spiritual battle we can fight.

How will

Hari Prasada: you even know what is superior? How will you even know what is right without some objective stance? And what is that objective stance? Just a bunch of people. I've spoken about this in the podcast before, but just a bunch of people getting together, being the elite of the world and deciding we know what's right.

So How will you derive what is right? One person says this is right, another person says this is right. How will you know? And that's the divisiveness of this world, which no one is satisfied with.

and it gets really, really ugly. I mean, with wars and brutality, terrible things that are being justified as right. It's happening all around us. We just have to look. And the thing is, history repeats itself again and again and again until we learn the lessons. We know this, but we haven't learned the lessons.

This happened with Saddam Hussein. When we wanted to be aligned with Iraq because the enemy was Iran. And now the enemy is Iraq. We got to get that guy. We made that guy, but do we ever take responsibility for it? No, we were morally superior. Every step of the way. This is happening right now in so many ways, in so many places.

And it's not just the USA. This is a worldwide phenomenon that continues ad infinitum. And if we don't check ourselves, we will never have peace. We will never have happiness. We will never have even sanity. So it starts with us. Our ego is the problem. That's why we're able to tag along with what people are saying.

This is the right thing. And if we don't have an objective sense of truth that comes from rooting in the self, and divine principles that have been given to us, it's not possible. Radhanath Swami, Rasanath's guru, and the person who introduced me to my spiritual path, he says, we can clean up the environment all we want.

We're in a horrific climate crisis. And he says, we can clean up the environment all we want, but if we don't clean up the ecology of our hearts, It will get all polluted again because the external is the manifestation of the internal.

Michael: Earlier, I shared the question about what does moral superiority give us, and we talked about that. We've been talking the whole podcast about what is the cost of moral superiority, but just to anchor some of these things that we've shared, alienation was a word that you used earlier, Rasanath, divisiveness, death, disconnection, we're destroying the environment, war.

In some ways, there's not a single problem that we're facing that's not driven by morality. Moral superiority

Hari Prasada: politics function on trying to appeal to your sense of moral superiority and is so successful It's amazing and we're in a unique climate right now That is amping this up like anything and there are reasons for it and the fact that there are reasons for it It gives so much more power to our sense of moral superiority.

Michael: I feel myself agitated and In this state here, and we know that we have to bring this back to the individual level, because we're not going to change systems unless we change individuals, and it starts with ourselves, right, as Radhanath Swami says with the quote that you just shared around cleaning up the ecology of our hearts.

So, as we're starting to close this conversation, what should we be taking away with us as next steps to be able to to work on our own sense of moral superiority?

Rasanath: The first thing you do is look for it. Acknowledge it. And there are clues when somebody is talking bad about someone and that makes us happy.

There is a clue when somebody is appreciating when somebody is saying something that is true about somebody else that we feel a sense of competition with and we feel happy. There is moral superiority. This is the other thing with moral superiority. When And this I have seen in myself very, very clearly.

that I have genuinely acted better than somebody else in certain situations. And, you know, I have felt better about myself, how consistently I've acted better than this other person. And then one day I asked myself this question. So what if next time the person acts as good as I am? And you know what happened?

I felt anxiety about it. I felt like, oh my god, if this person acts well, then where do I stand? And that, to me, was very painful because now, you know what I wanted? I did not want the other person to become better. I wanted the other person to freeze and be who they are so then I can feel better about myself.

Michael: That's powerful. you think about the realm of politics do you want the other team to become better? It's like, whoa, that would be scary, actually, even

Rasanath: though we should want that. I'm going to speak about how much they are not good. And at the same time, really hoping that they stay that way.

You see how twisted this is. That

Hari Prasada: fuels my sense of purpose. Okay, so look for it as step one.

Rasanath: Really, really look for it. That's the real detective work. Because when you look for it, you can no longer, when you acknowledge it, you can no longer truly acknowledge it. You can no longer sustain it. That to me is the single biggest thing you need to do is to actually constantly look for it.

Hari Prasada: There are a few things that I really want to share here as we try to close. So we have to understand that the self is the only stable identity. And because we don't feel in contact with ourself, therefore we have to create a sense of a stable identity, and it doesn't work, and therefore we don't feel enough, and we're trying to prove and convince ourselves, and we use moral superiority as the best strategy.

It's easier than actually getting in touch with who we are, and which is a spiritual journey. And it's the most epic, challenging, and inspiring journey there is. If we don't really go for that journey, if we don't look for values that are objective, universal, intrinsic, even divine, as we've spoken about, then we will be given values by the world.

And Rasanath, you had mentioned that moral superiority is the last straw of the ego in a way. And I'm thinking of perfect example of Arjuna, the protagonist in the Bhagavad Gita. we see a person who was so much wanting to feel good about himself that he refused to fight a just war because he gave his reasons that he would kill innocent people.

And in that refusal was the sense of, see, I'm compassionate. I'm good. And Krishna, who is coaching him to fight because. If he didn't fight, then innocent people would not be protected. And that was the need of the hour, to protect the innocent people and establish dharma, establish righteousness, which was being threatened.

So, Krishna coaches him to see his moral superiority and to give it up and to actually fight. And he had amazing reasons. I mean, if you look at them, you would think, oh, he is such a good person and he was very good. But there was a deeper place that he needed to go to for self realization and for even higher values than the ones that he was clinging to without realizing there was moral superiority in it.

He needed to go deeper. So that is the ask for all of us. And for me, the last thing I will say is. I had a major, major reckoning. When I realized how much I was consumed by moral superiority myself, it's something I speak about in our excavating your ego enneagram workshop. When I realized that in a relationship that I was in, I always felt like I'm the good person.

I'm the calm, nice, considerate, caring person. And the other person that I loved very much and thought I would marry, she was unstable. She was, I felt mean and she was controlling and there were good reasons. And this is the thing. There are always reasons. Sometimes they're good reasons.

In this case, there were good reasons why I felt that way, but I didn't see at that time how much the sense of being good and better than her was giving me the solace and the sense of control and the ego identity that would fill the void. And it doesn't actually fill the void. It was miserable. So I had this reckoning with that, where I just broke down and cried because I saw my ego was running the show and convincing me that I was stupid.

And so beyond ego, when in fact I was not quite the opposite, I was ruled by my ego and I really made a vow to myself. I cannot have that anymore. I cannot be ruled by my ego and the best strategy for the ego to win us over is to convince us. You're a great person. You're a good person. You're good enough.

Moral superiority. And that is what we have to see in ourselves and say, no, thank you.

Michael: I will not accept that. Thank you guys for sharing these thoughts and closing and Hari for that very personal example. I need to call myself out right now because I am feeling a little moral superiority for just having recorded a podcast on moral superiority.

I'm so grateful that we had this time together today to be able to discuss this topic. We've been wanting to just talk about this for a long time.

Ross and I, I know it's particularly close. to your heart. I mean, it's close to all of our hearts, but you're often referencing it more than anyone else. So it was great to get back in here and speak about this and unearth so much of your wisdom and to be able to just out ourselves with some of the ways that has shown up in our personal lives.

Rasanath: Thank you,

Michael: Michael. Thank

Hari Prasada: you. Thank you so much.