Effective One-On-One Meetings: From Transactional to Transformative

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Upbuilding the Self. This is Michael Sloyer, and I am here with my partners and dear friends, Rasanath and Vipin. Hey, topic today, we are going to be speaking about something that's a pretty big deal for a lot of people.

It's very often the case that people will come to us, especially in coaching relationships, and complain about the number of meetings, and yet, doing meetings is something that people mostly don't have a very good sense of how to do it effectively. So it's something that people are spending a lot of time on, but they've never really been properly trained how to do it.

Vipin, maybe you could get us started by sharing from your perspective what is so important about this topic.

Vipin: Yeah, thank you. Before I do that, something you said in your opening triggered a memory for me

I was remembering when I graduated from business school, I had my first job and my boss. invited me to a one on one meeting in my calendar. It was, I'd never heard of a one on one before. I'd never had one before.

And it was really funny because in the beginning, I thought, Oh, he's inviting me to the meeting. He's going to, tell me what he wants and I just showed up with a notebook and a pencil and nothing else and no thoughts on what I need to talk to him about and then he slowly helped me understand he wants to use this time for me to come and discuss with him what are the things that are on my mind that I need help with

So now to answer your question, what's important about this? Well, I think as you mentioned, the one on one meeting is kind of a mainstay of work life. And if you think about an organization Essentially, it's a collection of people working together, then how people work together is everything in how that organization functions.

And if you kind of boil it all the way down to the fundamental unit of people working together,

So I think of the one on one is almost. A litmus test for how is the whole organization functioning. So that seems pretty damn important when you think about it that way.

I would say so much has been written and spoken about in terms of like how to make meetings more effective. You can find so many books, And yet it seems to be.

Rasanath: What I get surprised by is how our clients still ask us the same question when there is a plethora of material on how to do it more effectively. And to me, when I really understand what's the mindset behind the question, there seems to be some level of dissatisfaction

There still seems to be some level of discontent around, well, why are my meetings more effective? Either because there are so many meetings that I have to be a part of or I just don't feel that it is as effective slash productive as I would like for it to be. And to me, I feel like what I would love to share more about is how do we approach those meetings more than the meetings themselves.

It's not the conducting of them as much as the, mindset behind our relationship with those meetings. To me, that's what I think makes the difference in terms of something being effective as a long term.

Michael: I love that. So people are not necessarily going to leave here with a tactical list of how do I run an effective meeting?

Although I hope that some of those points get brought out through our discussion, but podcasts to go a few layers deeper to really look at What's the mindset

Rasanath: I think there is a lot of tactical very effective tactical advice available And I think what happens is the those tactical steps when they're separated from the mindset then don't necessarily Work as effectively.

Excellent. Thank you both.

Michael: So before we move into what is an effective approach to take, what are some of the common pitfalls or mistakes that people make?

in their one on one meetings?

Rasanath: I think the common approach, especially the workplace, for the one on ones, and this is the typical mindset that I have been guilty of as well, there is a certain level of transactional nature to the one on ones. There is an objectification of the other.

And what that does is then it just substantially brings down the reason for the one on one. As soon as you make the other person an object instead of a person, and a person needs a relationship, when you think about an object, like when you're having a meeting with a thing that doesn't live, your approach to it is, well, how can I get the best use Of this thing versus, well, I'm sitting in front of a human being in front of a person, how do I build a better relationship?

Vipin: So the shift in the mindset is how do I use versus how do I serve? That makes all the difference. It reminds me of, uh, one of the important components of the upbuild core values. So this core value of spirit of service, one of the ways that we describe it is to treat people as subjects. Instead of objects, what that means for us is thinking about how can I serve this person as a subject as a human being instead of what can I get out of this person or from this person as an object.

So we often think of the word objectification. It has a really strong negative association. How could you objectify someone? But as you hear Ross not talking about it, it's actually so easy to objectify everyone. We're doing this all the time because we are turning person into an asset or an object and thinking about how are they going to serve my interest, my objective,

And so, so I think that that's a huge one, what Rasnath shared. I really appreciate that. On the other extreme of the pitfalls is when you have situations where you don't have clarity on what the purpose of this meeting is. So you've learned that the one on one is a mainstay of work culture.

So you have them, but you don't know, what do I have them for? It's unclear who owns the meeting. There's no agenda. I come in just like, how are you feeling? And it feels like I'm going through the motions of something that I'm supposed to be doing, but there's also not much connection or rapport being built.

It just feels like. I've heard from many clients feel like, well, yeah, I do this and I spend the half an hour with everyone. I don't know if it's doing anything. And I just feel like both people feel like it's a bit of a waste of time. So even when we talk about. The importance of the relationship. How do you go about investing in that in a way that feels still aligned with the context of work that we're here to do together?

Yeah. So this pitfall on the other extreme is again, not having clarity on what we're here to do.

Michael: Yeah. And it's on the other extreme in that I'm not thinking about the agenda enough. Now I'm not too much prioritizing the relationship.

Vipin: That's why I think about it at the other extreme. I think I am, or that's my intention, but it doesn't seem to be very effective.

And part of that is because, you know, when you're there in a work setting, you do have goals and you have Objectives in mind that you're trying to work towards. You have a vision and a mission that you're working towards. So building that relationship needs to be done in the context of that,

Michael: Okay, so we have two extremes here. Hopefully we'll, we'll bring these two together and find a medium that actually ticks the boxes that we're trying to tick.

Razanov, one question for you that came up as you were sharing about making sure that our mindset is not of, a transactional nature as I come into a meeting. What if the only reason for a meeting is that I do have an agenda and I am trying to get something out of this meeting? Because I think that would be a pretty common response to what you're trying to say.

I even felt some of that coming up in me as you were speaking. But yeah, I do have a bunch of meetings that are meant for a very specific purpose.

Rasanath: I think there are meetings that have a very specific purpose. So this is not to say that you can't have any transactional components to a meeting. This is not to say that at all, actually.

Vipin: There's a difference between getting something out of the meeting versus getting something out of the person. You can still be serving a person and wanting to get something out of this time together. There's a purpose for the meeting, but it's still not objectifying the person.

Rasanath: yesterday I was giving an example in our Eat a study group about how when somebody calls you and they tell you, Hey, you know, I have been really thinking about you a lot.

And, you know, I was really meaning to call you for a little while. But the real reason why I called you is because I saw on your LinkedIn profile that you're connected to this person and I'm, I'm looking for a job. I really want to connect with this person, it actually undermines the nature of the relationship itself.

Suddenly, I feel like, Oh, okay. So I'm only as important as what I can give you to me. That is the feeling of objectified is I'm only as important as what I can actually give you. And while we may have shared goals, when we think about hiring or hiring someone, sure enough, we are hiring someone because we feel that they are very effective in meeting the company's goals.

That is true. Then the nature of the meeting, once that is done, once we have actually assessed, are they competent? Are they capable? Will this person effectively serve the mission of the organization? Then the nature of the one on ones. has to take on a shape that is just more than, well, what can I just get from this person?

At that point in time, it is about, yes, sure enough, there are things to discuss in terms of common, like how do we get to the goal? Absolutely. But there is a flavor in terms of how that happens where both people actually feel that there is a connection that is deeper than just the transactional nature of it.

And what I have also found. in leaders that are very effective in the long term is that people actually feel connected to them as human beings. They feel seen, they feel valued as human beings. And what they want to do is it doesn't matter which organization you work for. I want to work with you. It's the spirit.

And that is a very powerful place to be. Then we can create that kind of environment in, in the one on ones that we have.

Michael: It reminds me of the common saying that people don't leave jobs, they leave their bosses. And what we're talking about is in reverse.

Rasanath: It's also very similar to how the best teachers I have had, I don't remember them necessarily for the subject that they taught, but how they taught the subject. It made such a substantial difference to my interest in the subject because of how they taught it, the experience that they gave me in teaching it.

Vipin: One other thing this reminds me of is there's a parenting blog that My wife, Kruti, had introduced me to from a woman named Laura Markham, who writes on AHA Parenting, and one of the things that she repeatedly talks about is connection before correction.

Connection before correction. If you're going to correct Your children, the leverage for making that correction is in the connection. So every time before you're going to give feedback or correct them, she keeps reminding us to connect and that what Ross not you were sharing earlier about the connection to the person to the leader.

I think it is. Exactly the same thing that she's talking about. It gives you the motivation to actually serve each other. So I going back to Michael, your question that prompted this part of the discussion. What if I have a meeting that I just need to get something from the meeting? It has a very specific purpose.

Is that okay? I think to me, when there is. that connection that's there and that's been built over time. It's okay to go right in. There's still some connecting that can happen, but you can have a very goal oriented meeting without there always needing to be a lot of relationship building because the relationship has been built and there's a lot of alignment.

And so we can go right into the objective in some of those cases without it feeling like an objectification. But I think that's built on this idea of connection. And when there's a strong sense of connection, then you have a lot more leeway. I mean, it's not dissimilar. Also from. The work of radical candor.

I always think that it's a misnomer to call it radical candor because it's all about, it's sort of focused on the radical candor instead of that whole framework is built on the care in the relationship. And if the care is there, the connection is there.

Then I have the ability to receive a lot of truth, a lot of difficult feedback. But all of these things are built on the relationship. And one of the things that I think this is from our partner, Hari Prasad, who would say about a coaching relationship that Rapport is our currency in any relationship, and so we have to always be mindful of what is the rapport in the relationship.

And we have to be investing in that rapport because that gives the currency with which everything that we do can be done.

Michael: So one of the early takeaways I'm having from this conversation so far is that effective meetings actually begin way before that meeting starts.

So if you're looking through your list of people that you meet with frequently, it will be helpful to think about how can I build trust with these people to an even greater degree than I already have. One, because that's the right thing to do. And two, it will make your meetings more effective.

Rasanath: Yes. So what I do want to emphasize again here.

And this applies to many things in life, is that what is the most important piece here is the relationship. And the reason why I say that is as soon as start thinking about developing the relationship as a strategy to get an outcome, what is really pulling the strings is still the outcome.

Michael: So it wouldn't be an Upbuild podcast without some talk about the ego, and I'm wondering what about our fears, which are really the fears of the ego, cause us to enter meetings? and also enter relationships in general in such a transactional way.

Vipin: I was just putting myself, I just stepped into that as you were asking the question, putting myself. In the shoes of the person you were hypothetically referencing. And I immediately, the two things that came to my mind were, I'm always under fear that sort of living with the fear that we're not doing enough.

We're not moving fast enough. And the moving target, which is always growing, we're not going to get there. So that fear is one I'm living with all the time. And then on top of it, there's the dual fear that this other person I'm meeting with. Is not going to help us do those things is maybe not. I have to stay on top of things, make sure the organization is humming.

All the wheels are turning at full speed and each individual is maximizing and optimizing their work. So I feel like it's my job to do that. And that there's a lot of fear there that is If I don't push the person, if I don't realize what the consequences are, maybe they're not going to be pushing as hard.

We may not meet our goals. How will that reflect on the organization? How will that reflect on me? So, I mean, I could, I could, probably speak for an hour about all the different egoic fears that I would have in a situation like this. But I think that kind of encompasses a broad generalization of what it's like, why we have those feelings.

Rasanath: I would say this just directly ties back to our four levels of motivation podcast, our podcasts, and so much that we have talked about in the four levels most basic level of motivation being fear The second being a reward or a prospect. The third, a sense of inspired duty. And the fourth is love. Now, and the workplace context, we never talk about the fourth, right?

Because it's considered to be, Oh, that's too touchy feely. And the reason I can tell you why many times it's dismissed as touchy feely is I want to keep it transactional. There is a way in which that I find it to be most. efficient. And so I want to stay in the first two levels. Which is fear and reward, and fundamentally by definition, that is the ego.

So when we are coming from those two places where I'm afraid of, as Vipin said, so many different examples, right? How do I look? Am I moving fast enough? Will this be big in a certain amount of time? How am I in comparison to my peers, which is a big one. Like, the comparison trap is a huge one here. And so I'm trying to fix the person so that I look better.

All of that leads to skewing the connection.

Vipin: Even if I'm thinking about I'm in a one on one meeting with A direct report, let's say it's an executive of the organization of the company, I'm also very conscious of how does that person see me? Do they see me as a very ambitious?

It's hard driving someone who's going to get us to the top of the mountain. And so that's influencing how I show up in that meeting that I, Hey, I'm a driver. And so I need to play that part also.

Rasanath: This goes back to the fundamentals of why the one on ones is so important The one on ones are the place where real psychological safety is established.

And then you carry that with you as you function in the organization and in other meetings. That is the place where psychological safety is established and consistently, potentially consistently experienced, which is why the single measure I think of effective one on one is, are you able to build that psychological safety as a leader?

And as a person who is potentially reporting it to someone, that is also the place where you begin to measure your level of psychological safety, which is why it is so critical.

Michael: So just to summarize some of what you both have shared, what drives transactional meetings, which also drives transactional relationships, is a feeling of not enoughness that comes from the ego.

Either I'm not enough, this person's not enough. We're not enough. And actually, even though the main purpose of one on ones is to create psychological safety and then be able to have that psychological safety consistently, the one on one meeting is not a place that's automatically immune from a lack of psychological safety or the ego showing up just because there's only two people involved.

Vipin: It's so striking how you just put it fundamentally, we're saying. Well, where the ego comes in is essentially a lot of not enough ness. I'm not enough, you're not enough, we're not enough. And our purpose is to create psychological safety. How do you create safety in the context of everyone not feeling like enough?

And I'm not feeling that way, and I'm making you to not feel that way. It's impossible.

Rasanath: Well, sometimes, and again, this has to be done with a lot of prudence and care, and I underscore that. I think there is a way in which you can create psychological safety when you realize that the other person in the conversation is not suffering from anything different than what I'm suffering from.

It creates a common platform of empathy, which to me is the first basis of connection, right? Like you can connect around your vulnerability as a human being, which I think is more fundamental than even connecting around goals. I'm not saying that connecting around goals is not important. But I think it is so powerful when two people connect around their vulnerability that what the other person actually desires and potentially is experiencing is something that I have also experienced and continue to experience.

That to me, that is the basis of creating psychological safety. So you can quote unquote transform the not enoughness, the experience of not enoughness. as the basis around which the connection can be established very powerfully.

Michael: We're starting to talk about now how to actually create that psychological safety, and it sounds like, Prasanna, what you're saying is vulnerability is a principle that I need to be bringing into meetings to help create that empathetic connection and that sense of psychological safety for somebody else to be able to show up as they are and not feel at risk Transcribed In the relationship, I mean, that that is the definition of psychological safety and some amount of vulnerability is required for that.

Rasanath: Yes, that's right. And how you exercise that vulnerability. looks very different. So for example, if you're talking to someone who works for you, reports into you, there is a way in which that person can be tremendously helped with your vulnerability. And at the same time, the person may also be looking to you for a certain level of strength.

So how you straddle that line takes a certain degree of maturity. Which is, again, one of the reasons why one on ones can be ineffective when that level of maturity has not been really built or exercised. So it is possible to make yourself vulnerable by talking about or sharing experiences from your past.

How you felt when you were potentially in that person's seat. Without necessarily talking about your vulnerability as you experience it right now. Because that may not be helpful for the other person because they're also simultaneously looking to you for a certain level of strength. So this requires a very prudent approach.

If we also talk about within Upland, we talk about what process to vulnerability looks like, where you exercise it very genuinely, very authentically, but also in the way that can serve the other person.

Michael: So you mentioned how we talk about process vulnerability.

That's in contrast to raw vulnerability or unprocessed vulnerability, where I'm just spilling things out without that Attunement to who's receiving it and what's appropriate for the situation

So now let us transition over and also back towards Vipin, what you had shared earlier around the other side of the pendulum, where one of the pitfalls is that people don't have a lot of clarity around what the meeting is for or what kind of outcome I'm wanting from this meeting.

Vipin: What's coming to me is that you're building a relationship in the context of The work that we're doing together. And so when you are connecting, still connecting with, in the context of some mission, some shared mission that you have.

You always are using the meeting to build rapport as we said that. And invest in the relationship, but another important piece of it is to use it to align with some of something that we haven't spoken about yet.

But 1 of the main functions, in addition to building relationship building that I often talk to clients about is using these 1 on 1 meetings for alignment. Okay. For alignment of priorities, we're working together towards something. And there's so many people in this organization working on different things.

And we talked about this in our podcast on time management and productivity that in terms of using your time more effectively. You have really two parts of the equation. Either I become more efficient at doing the same things that I'm doing. I just started doing them faster or you actually look at what am I actually doing are the things that I'm doing the right things.

And if I change those things, that's where you have much more leverage. So when it comes to alignment, there's such a huge opportunity in terms of what are we each. Focused on and are we in alignment that these are the things that need focusing on because 2 people are seeing many different things in an in any organization.

So, when we come together and saying, hey, this is what I'm prioritizing based on what I'm seeing and you can come and actually help me see, oh, there's other things that you may not know about that might change those priorities, but continuously using this to be in alignment. With each other so that I can feel a sense of confidence and conviction in the things that I am focused on because we've, we're together on this

And now I'm all of a sudden I'm building a relationship. Even when I'm doing alignment, you're still building a relationship and doing, I'm investing in being on the same page together with you. I am really, I care a lot about that. You are feeling motivated, inspired, and productive on the thing that, and you're contributing to the larger goals.

So you're still building rapport and relationship. It's in the context of our shared mission. So this piece that I was talking about on the other side of the transactional pitfall is where you are thinking you're building relationship, but it's again, it's disconnected from our shared goals, our shared objectives.

Rasanath: I also think that in the context of work, but also anywhere, you could extend this to anywhere. Clarity is a very important need because the human life is strewn with uncertainty in so many different ways. And especially in the context of work, we do experience a certain level of uncertainty, not just because how the business is doing, but how am I doing with the business?

So there is this very clear, distinct experience of Uncertainty that we all have. And so when someone is taking the time to be clear, or when we have clarity, it is also in some ways very synonymous and overlapping with intentionality. And that adds a lot of strength.

The clarity is in the service of the relationship.

Michael: Yeah, Vipin, as you were sharing some of the questions that you might ask the other person to help create alignment in a meeting, and the way that you were sharing it also, I felt that felt very caring.

It's like I'm genuinely interested in supporting them and helping them get more clarity, getting more clarity myself so that I can. then work in a more effective way with the other person. So that process of alignment, not only is it not divorced from relationship building, but it, there's something inherent about the relationship building in it.

Vipin: Also, as I finished and I was listening to both of you, I was thinking about our relationships that up build. And I was thinking that those relationships for me are greatly enhanced. by the shared work that we do. So if we were just in relationship outside of that shared mission, that would be one thing, be like friendships, but there's a completely different level of relationship that I experienced because not just because of the investment in the relationships, but that shared Mission and that, yeah, there's an exponential difference that I experience in the relationship because of that dimension.

That's the potential here, right? It's sometimes people think about, oh, I have to do relationship building and then I have to do work. Okay. Let me just, how are you feeling? I'm going to ask you all these questions. I'm doing, I'm doing the relationship thing. Okay. Now can we start, can we switch to work and let's talk about real objectives and actually.

It's way more integrated than that. And by the work that we do should build a relationship and the relationships that we build should facilitate the work. It's really integrated.

Michael: I love that. When you were sharing, I was thinking that some of my favorite meetings. with both of you when we're able to get on and maybe this is because my ego really likes productivity too but but when we're able to get on and just say like we don't have a lot of time we just got to get a bunch of shit done but what this conversation is making me reflect on is that That was only possible to be as effective as it was because so much of the work had been done beforehand.

That led to that place where we could say that the relationship wasn't at stake in any sort of way, there was such a solid amount of rapport. And so even if we couldn't express the care, because we had to move into the agenda, It was already obvious that that was there. And in fact, we were moving into the agenda because of how much we care about each other and the work.

Rasanath: I was just going to say that when you step into productivity that way, it actually feels like. a fun game that we are playing together.

But in those productivity moments, what I get deeply touched by is, ah, you know, that point, how that person showed up, how competent the person is. I just feel, and even during those times, I feel like, I feel so fortunate. And to me, that is the richness of it.

Michael: Your heart is open to be able to say something like that. And actually, a lot of times in these kinds of meetings, our heart is not open. So we can't experience that gratitude. And I can see how much you're smiling right now. Like there's a whole physical manifestation of that gratitude that you're feeling internally.

Rasanath: And so many times I've heard clients say, you know, I have done so much, but, and yet I hear very little from my manager I only hear when something goes wrong. Sometimes when people have this experience that when they're walking into a one on one meeting, That the only reason why the one on one is necessary is to actually be able to communicate well, what's not working.

And, uh, I've had a couple of clients in the last week say, I'm afraid to open my emails in the morning because I know what it's going to be about. And I have never been like this in my last 15 years of work. I've never experienced this. I've never experienced this kind of feeling. It just take, it dries everything

Vipin: out.

Michael: So as we start to bring this conversation to a close here, if I'm interested in moving to this place where I'm going to have more intention to prioritize the relationship over the outcome, and also on the other side, want to get better at creating more alignment, more clarity, making sure that I'm really understanding the purpose for the meetings.

What are some first steps

Rasanath: I think we have to take an honest gauge of where we are and for many of us the people that we work with consciously, subconsciously, or unconsciously objects and where this work begins is actually shifting how we see To me, that is a sign of somebody's actual health.

meaning internally, psychological health, when they don't see somebody as an object as a way to get to where they want to get to. And the reason why I can say that is I've seen that in myself, I have done that several times, and I see those tendencies creep up. And I have to make the conscious effort, because it's so easy when you meet a person, okay, what can this person do for me is the first thing that comes to mind what we actually get enamored by is what the person can do for me versus Well, who is this person?

And how can I serve this person while there are shared interests and shared goals, especially in the context of work, it is so important to shift the basis of our interaction from what can I get to, well, how can I serve

Michael: that made me think of one of the things that I was most excited to share coming into this conversation was a question that has been very beneficial for me.

It's also one that I've offered to some of the people that I work with when we're having these conversations around meetings, which is going into the meeting and thinking about how do I want this person to feel at the end of the meeting?

Vipin: I use that as well with clients. Any big meeting especially is like thinking about how do you want the other people involved to feel? I think is a very clarifying question. And in response to that question, as I think about the discussion that we've had, if I am going into a one-on-one meeting, and I were asked how would I want the person on the other side to feel when it comes to the relationship.

I want them to feel really inspired by our collaboration, really motivated in the way that we're working together and feel like we have each other's back. That's. Essentially what I want them to feel walking out and on the alignment side, I want to, to quote what Ross and I said earlier, I want them to feel clarity.

I want them to feel clarity and feel a sense of motivation to make progress on these things because it's connected to the larger goals that. That we have. So to your question, what do we have to do next? I mean, I think Ross laid it out so nicely. It comes back to asking ourselves, checking in on our mindset and seeing where, what shifts do I need to make?

If that's what I want. I mean, it's so hard. We're in a culture where people are, we do think of it as. and objectification. I mean, people are, they called it human resources for the longest time, right? Why? Why is, and they kind of changed the name, not because I mean, partially because resources is an objectification.

These are our human resources, our human. And then they

Michael: changed it to human capital management, which is not any better.

Vipin: Capital is something that you invest in. So yeah, it's not much better. But the thing is that I'm just, as we're speaking about this, I'm also thinking about people that we work with who say, guys, like this is not, A charity that I'm running here.

Like we have to get somewhere. There are lots of Stakeholders depending on it, there are very specific things that need to get accomplished. And so I hope it's clear that what we're saying is the most effective way to accomplish those things is by seeing people as subjects and not as objects by investing in relationships and rapport genuinely, and then feeling like building alignment around that shared.

Goals, shared vision, shared objectives.

Michael: Connection before correction.

Connection before everything. Thank you, Rasanath. And thank you, Vipin, for this conversation. I'm always Not only so grateful for all of the wisdom and insights that you share, but just for the connection that I have with the two of you. It's so uplifting to be in conversation and connection I'm experiencing right now the effects of us just having spent an hour together.

It was, it was really nice.