Saying the "Right" Thing vs. What We Actually Feel

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Upbuilding the Self. I am Michael Sloyer and I am here with Hari Prasada and Rasanath. And today the three of us are going to be discussing this topic of saying the right things without actually feeling them.

And this has been on our list of topics to talk about for a long time, I think more than a year now. because It's something that comes up often in my life where I find a drive to say certain things But I don't actually feel what's behind them And so it's been on my mind for a long time, but it sort of refreshed in my consciousness More recently and What I'm about to share is Intense and I feel a little shame talking about it There was somebody that I knew five or six years ago who I spent a bunch of time with she became a friend She would attend some of my workshops we shared a few meals in groups together, and a few weeks ago, she actually passed away.

She had gone through a long fight with cancer, and I found myself thinking about what I would write in this Facebook community that had developed after her death. And I had written a bunch of things, but never actually sent any of them, because even though I had thought a lot about her in the days leading up, because it was fairly obvious what was going on, when it actually happened, I didn't feel so connected to the emotions that I knew that I should speak about if I were to write something in that community.

And so, it's been on my mind, how can I actually Feel the things that I really want to feel. How can I be more connected with my emotions? So that's sort of the framing for our topic today. Hari, it would be great if I could kick it to you to get us started

Hari Prasada: Yeah, thank you. I was very moved by that example, Michael, and offer my prayers to this dear soul and all of the loved ones. The reason this topic is so important is because we've lost touch with ourselves, and our emotions are just part of the collateral for that. That if we're not in touch with our hearts, how can we be in touch with ourselves?

And if we want to be our best self, how can we do so without being in touch with ourselves? How can we do it without our hearts? This is the greatest travesty. It's the greatest travesty. So we are a civilization that walks around functionally knowing how to be in the world to some extent, but it's devoid of heart and therefore it cannot fulfill us.

And it cannot be aligned with the real us. So we have to reclaim ourselves. And that starts with a reconnection to the heart. And what does the heart do? It produces feelings, it produces emotions. So that's really the mission here. And where you see the mission creep is in knowing the right thing to say and saying it because It's functional, it gets you through, it helps us move, but it doesn't actually do anything for the real us.

It doesn't fulfill, and it doesn't bring us closer to our potential in any way, shape, or form.

Michael: Thank you for laying it out so clearly what's at stake here. What's at stake is the real us. being able to reclaim who we actually are. So, Rasanath, I want to get you involved here. How do you see this show up commonly in our world?

Rasanath: One example that comes to mind is, and this is again an intense example, that probably has an overlap with how you started this conversation, Michael. But when we talk at a funeral, for example, you can give a very impressive speech and say things that really move the audience. Without actually having any sense of connection or your heart actually feeling the very things that you're actually speaking about.

That's one way in which it plays out. Many times we also discuss world issues, we discuss, um, you know, suffering and especially in today's politically, very, very politically charged environments. That's why we also say we need to be politically correct. There is a reason why we say or use the term we need to be politically correct is because we can many times discussing these issues not necessarily feel what we are saying but still say what can be accepted.

In corporate environments when you have to give an employee inspiration speech. You can write a very impressive speech that gets people really riled up, without really meaning a single word that you're saying. If you really look at where your heart is, sometimes, You understand that my employees are just objects to get to where I need to get to.

I need them to feel inspired and so I'm going to say what will make them feel inspired, right, without actually feeling connected. Sometimes we are in environments where we genuinely have to be polite and we feel so emotionally overwhelmed. that we can't actually really feel the other person's suffering, but we still want to be polite to them because that is the right thing to do.

And again, we will say the right things without necessarily feeling what we are saying. So these are just some examples in the general world that show the dissociation between saying the right thing and actually feeling it.

Michael: Yeah, very helpful. And it seems like there are some examples which are very big and very deep.

And then there are some examples that we're not even seeing as important in our lives. But there's something about being on autopilot here. And what you both said is, we want a certain result. And that's what we're going after.

Hari Prasada: Consciously or unconsciously, the devious thing is that I don't know what I'm up to. I make it that way because I wouldn't be able to necessarily live with what I find out if I did know what I was up to. So, yes, I'm an empathic person. I'm a good person. I really meant every word upon closer examination.

In passing, sure, yeah, it all sounds great to myself, even. So I convinced myself. As our gurus, Guru Srila Prabhupada, would say, in order to deceive, first you have to deceive yourself. So I, I just, in passing, yeah, yeah, sure, I meant every word. But if you would actually stop and, and examine the contents of your heart, would it really hold up?

I think one of the most confronting things for me is writing cards. You know, whether it's a wedding card or a birthday card.

Rasanath: The reason why I feel very challenged during those times is if I have to actually write something that is genuinely meaningful that comes from the heart, it takes time, you know, and I'm optimizing my time for what is most effective and efficient for me.

Then I find myself writing things that can make the person feel happy, but without any connection to my own heart. But if I have to really express something that is from my heart, it is a time consuming process. I have to pause. I have to give myself the spaciousness to really feel and choose my words that actually come from my heart.

And usually when I'm writing cards, it's on the way to either a party or, or to an event just because of how we structure our lives. And it feels quite shallow and that experience of shallowness is something that I dread because I don't want to feel that way and writing a card many times makes me feel the experience that I'm a shallow person.

Michael: When you brought up the card example, there was a lot of smiles amongst the three of us because I think very relatable. I certainly related to it. Mother's Day just passed. I got my mom some flowers. on Amazon, embarrassingly. And in the card part of the sign out process on Amazon, you get like a hundred characters

You get a very small space. So efficiency is something you've identified as one of the reasons why we don't even take the time to do this. I think related to that, strongly related to that is I sometimes convince myself that even if I did take that time, the end output, let's say in this case, what I actually write on that card, be pretty similar to me not taking any time to think about it and just writing what, so I, I do love my mom, so I just write that, but I'm not actually connected to that in the moment.

Rasanath: What we don't think about is where is the relationship? And that's a very good for going back to what Farid Saad said is that is a very confronting thing, because if we were to actually peel some layers here and think about going back to what you said, it would be the same output.

But what if I have to actually change the output itself? which is actually feeling connected. It takes work, which, you know, I don't want the relationship to be in that place. I don't want myself to be in that place that I find myself in. And then what to speak of the work that needs to be done here in order to potentially shift the actual tenor of the relationship.

It is a lot.

Hari Prasada: I think that time is one important factor. I don't even think it's the most important factor. And you can take all the time in the world. But if you don't really desire to see what's going on in the heart, what will it do? And that's the most intimidating thing is to actually look at myself.

And then to try to work through stuff and try to really connect with myself, because I know that if I do that, I'm going to come up against all kinds of blocks. I don't want that. I'd rather just like already be amazing. Because I am, right? I'm just amazing anyway, and I have all the love in the world in my heart.

Rasanath: The other thing is it brings up, and this is something that I have experienced very commonly, it brings up feelings of guilt. When I say things and I don't necessarily feel them, and I'm thinking, my God, I should be feeling these things, and I'm not feeling them. And it makes me feel very guilty. And I don't want to feel guilt.

So the convenient way is to just say without feeling

Michael: Yeah. You just assume the best. Yeah. That goes back to

Hari Prasada: getting a certain result. And the biggest issue I often bring this up is that we are a hall of mirrors. Like I was sharing in the beginning, we are a civilization that functions in a certain way and reinforces the same.

So everybody's doing it. Everybody's doing it. I don't even think things should be different. It's just, everywhere I go, this is just, this is reality. Come on, this is reality. It's good enough.

Michael: It works. Yeah, I think about being on the receiving end. If something good happens, the birth of my child, which happened recently, a lot of congratulations came my way.

I guess I assumed that like most of them weren't that heartfelt. have certain relationships Which I would expect that it would be more heartfelt than other relationships But like sort of taken as a whole People say what they feel like they should say and also I'm seeing the lens through How I would be in their situation

Hari Prasada: I've got to say, I've always rebelled against The societal way and the tendency and myself to follow. I've always felt like, why, why should we be like that? This is nonsense.

I just being very frank. And since my earliest memories, somehow I had that mentality. Some of it is my nature. Some of it is otherwise, but it bothered me. It bothered me to no end. And then the question is, well, what can you trust? And relationships are a matter of trust and relationships are one of the biggest sources of fulfillment.

Ultimately, they are the biggest source of fulfillment. So I have always really pushed myself And some of it comes naturally, some of it requires more pushing, but overarchingly, I've pushed myself to be like, Hey, I'm just going to say what I really feel and then there will be exceptions to that based on what I know is not going to benefit other people.

If I were to express everything that was in my heart, it wouldn't do any good. So that that's another dimension of this. conversation that we can talk about. But the first thing is why not push ourselves to really express what we mean and have the courage to see the disconnect in our hearts and to make the reconnection.

Michael: So let's say I'm a leader in an organization, and I feel like it's my job to give some inspiration to the other person. And you gave us this prompt and this challenge, which I really appreciate, to push ourselves. What is pushing ourselves? in a situation like that look like?

Hari Prasada: I mean, I'll tell you how I would approach it. And this is, I mentioned that this has been there in me somehow since my earliest memories, but it has increased intensely and been contextualized from my spiritual journey. And through mission of upbuild, it has become really from becoming a monk and taking up the practices that are really my life and soul now.

This is only intensified much more the focus on being authentic and in touch with my heart, my emotions. So what I would do in that situation is ask myself, well, what do I really feel here? And then why do I feel that way? And what of that is applicable to the situation that will serve people well? So what do I actually feel?

Why do I feel that way? And what is applicable to the situation that will serve people? Well, those three things. And then I have some more work to do, which is okay. What will most really serve these people? And how do I get to feeling that? Because what I already feel may not be that what I'm coming in with may not be all that is required.

Michael: You're smiling

Rasanath: and smiling because just by the, the sheer dint of that framework that Harry Prasad laid you, we know that this is not an efficient thing, right?

And so the situation that you described. Michael typically has this, this, how can I get the maximum result by, and this is how we are wired, right? And this is also how societal norms are going. Uh, there is something about optimizing and one of the elements of optimizing is how do I get the maximum result by putting in the minimum effort?

You know, it's also how we make money. How do I get the maximum return by putting in as little as possible. So when you see that is the consciousness behind how we interact, then we see that the greater the disconnect is from authenticity, right? So the process that Hariprasad laid out actually takes work, which is not efficient, but it can be very effective.

Hari Prasada: And the effective actually is ultimately more efficient because you spare yourself a lot of trouble.

And as I was talking about earlier, mission creep and all kinds of just disconnect, you're, you're further entangling yourself and to break free of that and to actually live a fulfilling life and have the maximum impact on other people, which means impact on their hearts. That's what impact really means is impacting their hearts,

Krishna teaches Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita and his coaching of Arjuna to self realization. He teaches that the mode of goodness or the what we talked about in our Enneagram workshops or workshops to really become our best based on our individual personalities.

It all hinges on the creative consciousness, the consciousness where we're freest, where we see the most and we can express ourselves the fullest. So Krishna is talking about this level of consciousness, which he, he talks about his mode of goodness. And that means broad thinking, long range. It's like poison in the beginning and nectar in the end, he says.

Poison in the beginning, nectar in the end. There's an austerity to it that the mind doesn't like, the ego doesn't like, but which the real self thrives off of and which becomes more and more pleasing the more we lean into it. And so one who is really situated in the mode of goodness or the creative consciousness can see things and can be patient and wait for the results to manifest.

And what you had described, Rasenath, about wanting the maximum result for the minimum input, that's cheating.

That's actually cheating. I want something not based on what is merited. That's a big problem. And you see that's rampant in our society, grossly and subtly, in extreme ways and in very, very small ways in our everyday lives that are very passable and congenial, so we think. But that cheating mentality is what we have to attack.

Michael: Thank you for that. And also for sharing the five question framework, which you, it felt like very spontaneously outlined. It was. It was.

Hari Prasada: Yes. For me, it's helpful to articulate what I do naturally.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Great. And, uh, just to address this efficiency versus effectiveness, I was thinking when you, when you said the original three questions, There was something in my mind saying, okay, this is, this is pretty efficient.

This is something that I can sink my teeth into. And then when you went to four and then went to five, that's when it's this is going to be hard and, and it's going to take a lot of work. but just to reiterate the five questions, What do I feel? Why do I feel it?

What is actually applicable to the person? What would serve this person best? And then if I see a gap. Between where I am and where I would actually want to get to what would, what would serve best overall, then how can I get there myself?

Hari Prasada: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So number one, again, what is it that I'm feeling?

Number two, why am I feeling that way? Number three, What of that is applicable to the person or persons the situation will best serve them and then step 4 is really stepping back and looking at, okay, this is what I have brought to the equation, but what outside of me is needed here. What is objectively needed or what can I perceive?

Is needed. If I really thought about the best interests of everybody here, really, how can I serve them? And then step five is, okay, how do I bridge the gap between that and where I'm at? How can I feel what

Michael: will best serve? Right, so I know I brought up the example of a leader in an organization, but actually, Rosana, your example of giving a speech at a funeral, I think, is very provocative.

And how might we apply a framework like this? to an example like that?

Rasanath: Well, I think the situation of a funeral is a very intense situation where you have to actually reflect on the nature of the relationship itself, especially after the person has passed. And sometimes when a person has passed, based on the nature of the relationship, you wished you showed up differently.

So when you think about question five, in the context of a funeral,

Michael: question five being, how can I get there myself?

Rasanath: How can I get there myself? It's a tough one because you can't get there anymore, In the sense that because the person has left, the opportunity to actually in a live situation, really build that kind of a relationship with a person doesn't exist.

But there is a way in which when we understand the gap, They can still be very authentic to convey that this is where I experience a loss. This is where I probably didn't do enough work that I will not be able to do anymore because the person has left. But maybe there is a place where I, even after the person has passed, that I can actually try to understand this person through the lens of other people, but I can still develop a relationship with the person.

And the reason why I highlight on that is because I have experienced that with respect to several people who have passed in my life, that when they were around, I never really, I gave a little more than lip service to that relationship. And I never really fully understood. And what has been helpful is to be able to understand that person through the lens of people who actually had a relationship.

Hari Prasada: I appreciate all of that, Rasanath, but I was also going to say there is work to be done after even someone has passed. And that is, as you said, through the eyes of others. But it's also by stepping back. Seeing the person with different eyes, even without hearing or trying to see through the eyes of other people.

What about seeing through my own Uncolored eyes, untinted eyes, how can I see this person as I've not yet allowed myself to experience them? What did this person stand for? How did this person conduct him or herself? How is it that I could connect? with things that I didn't connect with previously. And sometimes when the life of the person is so tragically concluded, we can get more perspective and the relationship can change.

It becomes freer if that's what we desire.

So in the, in the example of where I have to make a speech for a person. So this is not about going back and making anything different in the relationship.

Michael: But I might, in thinking about what I would say in this speech. There's a bunch of things that would likely come to me at first of like, these are the things I'm supposed to say about somebody who has passed away. You know, I have, I've had a bunch of experiences, so I'm going to take those experiences and put them through this filter of what I'm supposed to say, and then out is going to come a speech.

But we're saying, no, we need to actually put effort into and push ourselves to really express what's in our heart.

Rasanath: I think just like writing a card, one of the things that I find very confronting is being able to give a speech on somebody's, you know, death anniversary because you have to spend time really thinking about that relationship and various aspects of the relationship.

The speech is not about giving an impressive speech. It's about actually bringing somebody's personality alive. That means that they have to be alive for you.

Hari Prasada: And that's equally important during the person's lifetime.

Rasanath: Right. And the aliveness, right, like the aliveness of the person is directly tied to the openness of our heart, because how else will we experience the aliveness of the person?

Hari Prasada: A heart to heart offering is exactly what I was thinking. From from my heart to the heart of the other and that will actually be most impactful to anybody that gets to hear and this is not a prompt for revisionist history. This is not about like, well, let me wipe away all of the blemishes and make it that this person is so amazing.

And there's a tendency to do that. There's a strong tendency, we almost feel like that's the right thing to do. Of course, that doesn't mean there's no place for like, we want to emphasize the positive. It's not that we're trying to go into the negative. But, sometimes, we also don't have to give the speech, you know, if we're not asked.

Sometimes we don't have to give the speech if we don't feel enough. We don't have to volunteer ourselves.

What we're trying to do is be real and what is real is often what we're missing, which means that there's goodness in this person's heart. There's goodness in my heart that I'm missing, and there's a connection there, and if I can contact that in myself and see it in the other, then that will serve very well, without needing to dial up anything or pretend other things are there, and not needing to change, necessarily, my orientation, like, there are relationships that I don't want to get close to.

There's no shortage of people that I don't want to get close to, and I don't want to give a speech about, I don't want to write a card for, that's not because I'm a callous person, at least I hope, it's because that's not meant to be,

Michael: So one of the things I'm taking away from what you just shared is that even if there is an audience, and there often is an audience, which is one of the reasons why we find ourselves trying to say the right things as opposed to say what we actually feel, what we have to recognize is what will serve that audience best.

is when we're actually speaking from our hearts.

Hari Prasada: Yeah, sometimes if there's a, a real challenge in the relationship or something which is coming up as a block, I can introspect and think what's on my side to take responsibility for and I can think what's on the other side that is affecting me and how much of that is really the other person's responsibility versus my ego tempting things and I can work through the things.

I can pray about them and I can write, I can journal, I can write a letter to the person, whether I send it or not. If obviously the person has passed, I can't send it, but it's very therapeutic, very healing, and it restores something in us that may be lost when we do that.

Michael: So going back to the example of the leader speaking to his or her team about Motivation.

And if I'm a leader and I don't really believe in these people, what am I supposed to do? Should I, should I not? What whatcha doing as a leader of people that you don't believe in ? Yeah. I guess this is sort of the same, same thing that you've, you've just shared is don't end up in these situations in the don't, don't be right.

Don't be saying the speech for the person you don't care about in the first place.

Rasanath: Well, there is a reason why you're keeping them. and this is pretty confronting, right? When we realize that we have actually used, we are using people as objects. So when you don't really believe in people, but you still want to keep them, the question is, why are you keeping them?

And the only answer can be because I need them for something. And I'm just waiting for this thing to be over with, which after which Whether they stay or leave doesn't matter. Is that real care? Right? It's not. And these are some of the things that get revealed when we actually connect with our hearts, which we necessarily don't want to see or acknowledge.

Hari Prasada: Well maybe that's practical. Maybe that's just what you have to do and okay, I'm not the, I'm not going to win the Nobel prize for my approach, but I am going to make the business grow and this is great. And I'm also serving those people because they're getting paid and they're, they're reaping the benefits.

So. Yeah, that's just practical.

Michael: What's the cost of that?

Rasanath: If the response is, well, I don't really care about that.

We have to really ask the question, where does our empathy lie really? Because a genuinely empathic person doesn't say, I don't care.

Hari Prasada: And what are we doing here on this planet? Then life is just me oriented. It's just about me and getting what's mine. And yeah, I have, I play by some rules so that I don't disturb people too much and things go well, but it's a game of me, me, me, which is actually rather repugnant.

And when you see that everyone is operating like that, why would you want to be a part of that? Why wouldn't you want to be where there is actual love when we know that every single one of us wants to love and be loved more than anything else? So why are we robbing ourselves of that? What is the point?

Michael: So this brings us full circle back to what you shared in response to my first question about reclaiming our humanity. And really getting our aliveness back, which means being in touch with our feelings.

Rasanath: Otherwise, how do we even know what happiness feels like?

Sometimes happiness or the experience of happiness is just a very fleeting, very surface level moment. This just doesn't run deep.

Hari Prasada: It's pleasure. It's not happiness. It's thrills. It's adrenaline or dopamine. It's some, some chemical satisfaction that's momentary that doesn't touch our hearts.

Michael: And I just want to acknowledge that this is hard, you know, I think about the example that I shared in the opening about my friend, and now feeling some new inspiration to go back and revisit my own reaction and really do some work around how I feel, but it's, it's a little humiliating to think that there is efficiency as a motivating factor or a result as a motivating factor in something that's so deeply meaningful as a person's life and my relationship to that person.

Rasanath: Living a full hearted life is hard work, but there is a, there's an experience of depth and real happiness that comes with it,

And I would say that the joy of that hard work is long lasting. There is a way in which when our consciousness really rises to that point and stays there, it's very free, very open and full way of living life, which I know we all very deeply want. I also

Hari Prasada: touched upon the exceptions to saying the right things and not being connected to the feelings behind them.

I just wanted to emphasize that it's not that we should always say whatever is in our heart, because that may not serve. And there are many, I mean, there are unlimited situations. where that will not help anybody. So this is not about just like dumping what's in my heart out. One has to exercise intelligence, but the question is, why are you not sharing what's in your heart?

Is it for me to just protect my ego or is it for the benefit of my real self and the other person in the relationship or the situation? What will really best serve? I don't want to entangle myself in negativity so I may not share everything because the person may not receive it well and it may not be beneficial and I could spend my entire life just sharing negative things because there are unlimited negative things.

But that doesn't help. So what I have to think is, what will serve, what will serve, and sometimes I need to say the right things because I'm trying to see the potential in that person and help encourage them, even if I don't feel it as much, because it's necessary. So there are ways in which we have to also consider saying the right things because they're the right things to say, even when I don't have so much feeling for them.

But that's not an excuse to then make that my modus operandi.

Michael: So that asking ourselves this question, what am I really up to? What is driving me and I think you identified, or we collectively have identified four things that if I'm up to one of these things, then I'm not in service of what's really best.

One is efficiency. The second is trying to get a certain result. The third is, we don't want to bump up against our blocks. And this last piece, of a feeling, I should be feeling a certain way. And so I'll just speak to that. And if any of those are present, It's a good indication that we probably need to dig a little deeper

Hari Prasada: So nicely put and you can all boil it down to one thing.

I want what I want I want to not feel these things. I want to be efficient. I want I want I want I want what I want for me for my ego

Michael: Thank you both for this very enlivening conversation. I'm certainly leaving here with not only a lot more understanding of How to work through things like this, but also a lot of inspiration to actually put it in place in a very specific way in my life right now and hopefully in many others. So thank you.

Hari Prasada: So happy. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.