Can I Be Successful If I Give Up My Ego?

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Vipin: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Upbuilding the Self I'm Vipin and I'm here with Rasanath and Michael. Hey guys. Hey. Hey

Michael: Vipin.

Vipin: So happy to be with you and to discuss this topic that we're going to explore today, which is the relationship between the ego and success.

So before we frame the relationship between these two things, let's define each one. Can one of you define the ego so that we're all working from the same definition?

Michael: We define the ego as the identity or identities of who we think we should be. Okay. Which is different than who we actually are. So all of us, we want to be seen a certain way by the world. So ultimately we can see ourselves that way. And so we're out there proving and defending those identities so that we can feel enough so that we can feel enough of who we think we should be.

Vipin: Great. Thank you. And one question that often comes up in my mind around this definition that I have not actually expressed before. But if I'm listening to this, I might have the question, what is the difference between who I think I should be? and who I actually am.

Rasanath: Thank you. It's a very vast topic and in the question itself, part of the reason why this question is so important and yet so complex is that those two things who I think I should be and who I am are so conflated that to parse those two things out takes getting used to experiencing even a little bit how those two things might be different.

So who I think I should be is always surrounded by a sense of fear and control. And because of those two things, the energy around who I think I should be is proving and defending, as Michael expressed it earlier. Whereas who I am, the energy around it is love and service.

And there is a certain freedom associated with that love and service. It flows very freely and naturally So that is the energetic difference between the two. And if we pay very close attention, then we will see how, when we are pursuing who we think we should be, it doesn't feel like love and service.

Michael: When we first started talking, before we started recording, you used the word essence. So all of us, if we're even a little bit introspective, we have a sense that we're something deeper than all the stuff that's happening on the surface.

And so that's how we like to think of it at Upbuild, of who we are as the essence.

Rasanath: And to be more direct. When we read wisdom texts that talk about the distinction between the ego and the true self, they talk about the true self as spirit, as soul, as pure consciousness. That is completely different and in no way connected to the material identities of this world.

And the material identities that we talk about in this world is what we call the ego. That's the explicit difference between the two.

Vipin: Very, very helpful. Thank you both for that. So let's also define success. What are we talking about here when we're talking about the relationship between the ego and success?

Can we define success for this conversation?

Michael: Yeah, so this is a lot more fun to define this word than the conversation we just had about ego. I

Vipin: don't know, I thought that was pretty fun.

Michael: Well in preparation for this conversation, I took a look at Some famous people and what they had to say about success.

So I'll share that with you here and then we can use that as the basis for aligning on something that might feel more concrete for our conversation. So Tony Robbins, the great self help guru.

Vipin: I

Michael: was

Vipin: so curious, who are the four people that you Identified and taken their words. Okay. So Tony Robbins, number one, let's hear it.

Michael: Success is doing what you want, when you want, where you want, with whom you want, as much as you want. Bob Dylan, a man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do. Those two are aligned. Do what you want is success. And Mark Cuban, to me the definition of success is waking up in the morning with a smile on your face knowing it's going to be a great day.

Vipin: Okay,

Michael: happiness

Vipin: and positivity.

Michael: And Warren Buffett, I measure success by how many people love me.

Vipin: Okay, so what do you make of all of that? What did you make of all of that?

Michael: So there's a clear connecting force, at least in the first couple of freedom. And I think when I also think about how I live my life in relationship to success, this has played a big part of it.

I want success because I want freedom, freedom from many different things, and we can talk about what each of those things might be, but there's a driving force for freedom and success becomes a, a way that I think that I can achieve that freedom. And then we sort of move up a little bit in consciousness as we get to the Warren Buffett definition of I measure success by how many people love me.

But still, first of all, it's external. It's dependent on, I need to be a certain way for other people so that they will love me. And also I'm measuring it by how many, so I have to now count the number of people and it becomes some sort of game that I'm trying to achieve. And when is enough enough. So as I think about all of these definitions, the thing that I take away from it is this is so flimsy.

There's not really solid ground to stand on when it comes to a definition of success. And that's our problem Because We all think we have a sense of what success really is, but when we actually start digging into it, we realize how fragile and flimsy it is.

Rasanath: The word success, when you break it down to its bare bones, is getting an outcome.

So when you get the outcome that you desire, you say you were successful. When we say there is a very successful person, there's an implied meaning that we have in our current day society. because that achieving an outcome, the outcome is very naturally what we input into what that outcome is. Our current day society basically puts it as well, material wealth position, you know, some sort of eminence that has become the more common notion of success, but very basically success means there is an outcome that you desire and you get it.

Now, why that outcome and why do you desire that outcome? This is very simple. That outcome makes me happy or you think it will, but the pursuit of happiness is just very natural and it's universal. If I get this outcome, I think I will be happy. And when that happiness is abstracted, you know, many layers where it's money, it's position, it's power, then we are essentially saying that those things will give me happiness, which is why I'm pursuing them. But ultimately, what it all points to is a desire to be happy. That's it.

Vipin: I appreciated what you said just now, achieving a desired outcome.

We can use that as a working definition here, achieving a desired outcome. And the other thing that you're pointing at is those desired outcomes are really all proxies for happiness. So whether it's fame, wealth, certain position, we are largely pursuing those things because we think that they will make us happy.

And what about when you're pursuing those things as a way to contribute?

Rasanath: Well, ultimately the contribution, when you think about a sense of contribution, what is the feeling behind contributing? At its purest, a sense of contribution brings happiness when you see that what you're contributing to, or who you're contributing to, that then there is an experience of happiness that is created there.

And that makes you happy. And it's not so pure state. The sense of contribution makes you happy because potentially you get recognized for the sense of contribution and then makes you feel like I am a loving, caring person. And that notion of how people see you and love you for that makes you happy.

Vipin: Reinforces the, an identity of who I think I should be. That's right. So this is very helpful. This is sort of setting the stage. For the relationship between these two things that we want to talk about. So at Upbuild, we obviously do a lot of work on understanding the ego and we've recorded many podcasts to help others understand the ego.

And one of the most common refrains that people express at our workshops or in coaching relationships is that my ego drives me to achieve. And if I were to give up my ego, Wouldn't I also be giving up that drive and all the future successes that I can see in front of me? So before we talk about what may be wrong with this logic, Rasanath, you had mentioned that you'd really like to explore the mindset behind this question.

So I want to ask you both, what is the mindset behind the question about whether I need my ego to drive me?

Rasanath: At the core of it all, this goes back to what we discussed earlier, there is a desire to be happy. That desire is coming from a very deep, it's coming from the true self,

and then it steps in the ego, and then it's like this consultant. It says, oh, you want to be happy? Okay, let me give you all the different options And it presents this picture of like, well, if you get this, you get this, and you get this, and you get this, then you will achieve that state of happiness.

And over time, that is further reinforced also potentially by the society that we live in. I mean, the messages that we get from our surroundings very, very early on in our life start to reinforce this. And then we begin to think and believe, actually, we don't even question this. We begin to believe that by getting this particular outcome, I will then attain happiness.

Vipin: So what you're saying is the mindset, it goes back to, there's an innate desire to be happy. And when I have this question that my ego drives me to achieve, I very closely couple happiness with achievement for many people.

So I'm not talking about happiness. I'm talking about achievement and success. But the mindset is that, yeah, of course, that's what I want. So what are all the tools in order to be able to get that achievement and success? And one of them is my ego. So I need my ego.

Rasanath: Well, it's also one of them is my ego. It is my ego.

That's the only real tool that I have that helps me pursue the happiness in certain ways, as promised by this world, right? I can just give you a quick example in my own life. I have shared this with a lot of with you, many people in the past that I wanted to work on Wall Street since I was in eighth grade.

And I also wanted to own a yellow convertible and a blue motorboat. And what became clear to me over time was that it's not about having those objects. It's about then I have this notion in my head that people will love me in a certain way when they see me in it.

And that is what makes me happy.

Vipin: Bringing us back to Warren Buffett's definition, how many people love me? Well, a lot more people will love me if I have that yellow convertible. It's especially amusing for someone who doesn't even have a driver's license. I guess you changed

Rasanath: your definitions along the way.

Well, not just that, but you know, when somebody is walking by your house, when they look at your house, Or when they look at the car that's standing outside of the house, somehow implicitly, I think that people are going to be thinking about me in a specific way. And knowing that this is how people think about me will make me happy is the implicit equation.

Vipin: Yeah, right. I mean, Just connected to who I think I should be, I should be the type of person who has a house that people walk by and say, Wow, that's a beautiful house. Or who owns a car saying, Wow, that's a very nice car. That is the type of person who I think I should be.

Michael: There's a truth in this mindset.

The ego does drive us. I've experienced this very clearly throughout my whole life. I mean, even from a five year old on the soccer field trying to, win the trophy.

I remember how hard I worked. And so much of that was the picturing. The glory of success. And as Rosanna said, like how many people would love me as a result of that. So there's a real truth in the ego driving us. So it's not that people are wrong when they're having that orientation and they have this fear.

I think the thing that is also a part of the mindset is that I've invested so much in. My definition of success, which is likely very flimsy, that I don't know any other way to be. So I've just sort of gone down this path. It's like when you're on a hike and you have some sense that you might be lost,

But because you don't really know how to get back, you just keep going forward. I mean, this is how most of us operate with success is we just keep going because this is what we've convinced ourselves. This is what society has convinced us is the right way to go. And we don't know any other way.

Vipin: It reminds me of the idea that Or the common advice, don't become too good at something that you don't actually want to do the rest of your life.

Michael: And people find themselves pursuing something that like, I don't like spending my days the way I do, but what else can I do now? I, this is what I've sort of laid my path.Yeah. And there's a lot of corporate stories like this. Blockbuster is a great example, right? They got really good at selling DVDs in stores.

And then when streaming came along and Netflix came along, they weren't going to change their business model. And now you can't find any blockbusters anywhere in the world.

Rasanath: my experience is that there is a certain Maslow's hierarchy in success. where the basics of it, if you think about money, you know, a certain title, there's a certain basic level that gives you that I am a successful person.

Now, once that threshold is crossed, then it starts to, suddenly it starts to morph. We don't even ask the question, well, I thought I would be and this is where honesty is necessary, right? I don't really honestly say, well, I thought I would be happy when I get here.

But suddenly now it feels like I just drove a new car from a showroom, right? It's value just like significantly fell. I don't experience it the same way once I once have gotten it. So now the thing is, okay, so what's next, right? No. That becomes even bigger. It's not owning two or three houses and then saying that I have a home, the Hamptons or Lake Tahoe or something like that starts to, the social circles that I move around, then that's how it starts to morph.

And then it also starts to morph into like, well, I want to be solving the next big problem. I hear a lot of people talking about this as well. It's like, I want to be the person solving the next big problem, the next big challenge. And it can take the form of like intellectual drive, right? It's almost like, well, I want to go after a problem that nobody else has solved because that will really help me stand out, but I don't say.

Because that will really help me stand out. No, I don't say that. So now here, it starts to become a little more tricky to parse out, right? Because what I can even say is, well, this is a problem that the world is really experiencing, and I want to be the person to actually address the problem. I have one person who actually told me this person has been trying to solve this problem for a long time and then a situation arose where somebody else was really close to solving it and that person was like oh my god what will i do i don't know what to do here anymore because i'm so afraid that this other person is going to solve that problem before i would solve it and then i had to ask this question well is solving the problem the most important thing are you Solving the problem is the most important and it was pretty confronting.

But

Vipin: the person's entire identity is wrapped up in them solving the problem.

Rasanath: So this is how the ego just co opts everything to make it about my sense of identity. So the definition of success then starts to morph and morph and morph, And then there may be a few rare individuals who then can say, well, for some reason, this is not working.

I've done this numerous times, and it still feels empty. And what is that about? And then very different conversation emerges from that kind of questioning.

Vipin: We'll come back to this, what you're saying, Rasanath, I want to pick up on something that Michael, you shared earlier, which was. My ego does drive me.

You gave the examples of being a five year old kid playing soccer and winning championships. And so I think fundamentally what you were articulating is exactly what people worry about. That if I were to give up this ego, wouldn't I be giving up that drive and that success? So you said my ego does drive me.

I think the question is, without my ego, what would drive me?

Michael: My ego does drive me, but it's also not definitely true that without the ego, I wouldn't have drive.

Rasanath: The reason why many times I experience it as like a sudden loss of drive is because I've recognized that what I was pursuing potentially may still lead me to the same shallow place. So when we talk about the ego and where it gets its drive from, it's the promise of, well, if you are so successful, if you make so much money, if you reach this certain kind of title and position, then you will feel happy.

Vipin: And so now suddenly the drive is coming from the achievement of those outcomes. The drive is coming from the desire to achieve those outcomes.

Rasanath: And seeing myself having them,

Now when I question the outcomes themselves, I am so attached to those outcomes. that when those outcomes are questioned, I just experience a sudden loss of drive because I don't know where to go.

Vipin: See, if I'm one of the people who've expressed this refrain and I'm listening to this, I'm right now thinking, yes, exactly, I was right.

If I start to question, the whole thing unravels. And so let me just keep it together.

Michael: It does unravel for a period of time. If you define unraveling as. Needing to slow down because there's a gap that happens. And in that gap we need to figure out what's really important to us and who we are and those are big, deep questions in the work that we do.

A sort of a more accessible point with all of that is values. So figuring out what do I value and what are my values? And that work takes time. It takes digging, unearthing things. really questioning myself. And it might be that there is a period where I can't actually move forward with the same sort of pace or intensity that I'm used to.

Rasanath: Also, this goes back to when we have talked about the four levels of motivation, and each one of them, each one of those four levels of motivation, fear, which is the most basic, driven by fear. The second is driven by a prospect, driven by a reward. The third being driven by a level of duty, an inspired sense of this is what I must do.

And the fourth, which is driven by love, you will see they are all very strong drivers. Now, what we are actually asking is a shift in what is driving you. And when we are working from the first two levels, when we're working from a place of fear, not having something, or from a place of like, I want this, this, this, this, and this,

And those first two levels, they bring a certain kind of suffering.

And so when people come to us, they're asking the question implicitly, well, how can I get the success without the suffering? That's the implicit question. I want to get all of these things, but I don't want to go through everything that I have to go through.

And that doesn't work. And so when we come to that place where we have to have that conversation, it feels like, Oh my gosh, the reason why I'm suffering is because of my attachment to a certain outcome. Then the question arises, well, what will I do without that attachment? Because what it's showing us is that yes, the reward and the fear of not having that reward is what is really driving me.

And that's where I feel a little exposed, but that doesn't mean. That there are no other drivers. We need our counter examples.

Michael: So we need to be able to see the models in our life or in the lives of people we might read about who are driven by something that they feel deeply meaningful and are in line with their values.

So I work with a woman who's the president of a nonprofit that does work out in Africa and recently There was a situation that was a very, very challenging situation where all sorts of horrible things happen to people because of the immaturity and or decision making of a single person. And I have never seen someone work so hard in pursuit of trying to write that wrong.

She Put so much effort into thinking about how she would handle that situation. Like we spent a lot of time talking through what kind of outcomes she wanted. Then she went out to Africa and spent three weeks away from her family. She's got many children, many grandchildren, She was working from 7 a. m. to midnight, speaking with people, just like working through this whole situation. And the success that she shared as a result of what came out of it. And it was not easy and there were a lot of difficult things that happened on that trip. But the culture that has been changed as a result of the work that she put into it.

And she wasn't getting paid for any of this. but what I know is that she felt deeply inspired by this is the right thing to do and therefore operated with a huge amount of ambition. So we need these examples where we can see when, even if I don't have that egoic drive for validation, where ambition can still be out in full force.

Vipin: That sounds like a motivation from a place of duty.

Michael: Yeah, definitely level three sense of inspired duty. And I think she has so much love for the people over there and for the organization and for what's possible. So I think it was a combination of level three and level four.

Vipin: If you're a founder or CEO, Or you're a manager leading a division of some company. Again, I'm listening to this and thinking, okay, well, my job is to make this organization successful. So I have a job to do. And so if I come up against what we're talking about and saying, okay, all of this sounds great, but if I need to achieve certain results in the position that I'm in period, or at least That's what's being asked of me.

So how do I incorporate what you both are talking about with the current position I find myself in?

Rasanath: It's a very good question. And this is also the heart of the work that we do at Upbuild.

is one. The question that you have to ask yourself is how are you pursuing that success, which is where we have, we talk a lot about values because many times the pursuit of that success comes at a price. There is a price and it's very important to be very intentional about the price that we pay because many times the pursuit, when we pursue it, we are so blindsided that we don't understand what price we are paying.

And so when we do the coaching, we're not saying that, You know, don't pursue the success. And especially when you are in a role, it becomes your duty to take the organization to success. When you do it in a specific way, there is a certain culture that you build of how you pursue that success, which is a very important piece.

Now, when you do it that way, you also begin to learn a lot more about Your sense of awareness about your pursuits, about yourself, about your insecurities also starts to grow, which then brings you to a place where you can still be performing your role in an organization by taking the organization to to success.

But now suddenly your orientation is. The outcome becomes a guideline. What you are more focused on is a process. And if you are doing, and this is the wisdom directly coming from the Bhagavad Gita, which is at the heart of all the work that we do at Upload, how can I do my duty without being attached to the results?

That is where you actually really start to build a culture that is. freeing, very deeply motivated by a sense of depth in relationships. And success will come because of a very trusting environment, but it may not come at the pace and the speed that you like for it to come.

But there is a way in which you also can understand and acknowledge, you know what, I don't want to pay that price. Or then you can also say, well, I want to pay I, it's okay. If a few people think that this culture is Or a bunch of people think that this culture creates a lot of suffering, but you know what, that's what I want to do.

But there is a cost and it's done very intentionally.

Vipin: And so how do I, how do I detach myself from those outcomes, practically speaking, because I know I'm going to be judged on those things.

Rasanath: what is important here is to understand that the collective consciousness of the system that we are working in.

It's on the first two levels of motivation, fear and reward. And as soon as I'm a part of that system, and if that system is governing what I'm doing here, then it sets up a very impossible equation. And I will work it up. Bill. is not just helping individuals navigate that system, but hopefully over time is to also start to move the threshold of that system to a different level.

Because without that, and if we are truly honest, we have seen what the consciousness of the system that we currently work under is creating. It's creating endless amount of suffering where the price that I have to pay to become successful in that system is pretty huge. I was talking to someone yesterday who He's working at a successful hedge fund and he was saying how in order to keep this level of success there is a price I will have to pay and I'm at a crossroads whether I can pay that price and he was talking about his marriage and the conversation is also well the investors want more.

How am I going to navigate this? You can out serve two masters. There is a point in time where there is a price. And somehow our socioeconomic system is essentially telling us, well, are you willing to pay the price for what we define as success?

Vipin: Michael, you asked this question and I'm curious for your answer to this question. You had asked before we started recording, this question actually was the question that prompted this entire podcast, which was, do I have to stop pursuing success?

If I want my ego to stop running my life. And I think we alluded to the answer to this question through this conversation, but how would you answer it right now?

Michael: I think for many of us, we have a nature and this goes back to what Rasanath shared about the teaching from the Bhagavad Gita.

We have a nature causes us to be a certain way, a psychophysical nature that causes us to be a certain way. And for many of us. That means we will have a certain ambition and drive that will lead us out into the world and pursue success in many of the ways that we're talking about. So I think we have to pay respect and honor that psychophysical nature and therefore be engaged in maybe even the exact same activities that we're engaged in right now.

But as our Partner Hari likes to often quote or share the saying from Jesus, which is that we can be in this world, but not of this world. And so how can we actually honor that nature that we have and go out there, be in our companies, be in the same roles that we might have, pursue leadership, work really hard.

But not have the same attachments to the outcomes that are further entrapping us. I talked earlier in the beginning, how when I think of success, I think of freedom as really the thing that I'm after. And so if we're seeing that success is actually taking away our freedom, how might we change the way we go about pursuing that success so that we feel that sense of freedom rather than it being taken away?

Rasanath: there is a price that we now pay for the success that we need to experience. And so going back to what Michael, you were saying about being in this world, but not of this world. If you have to live in this world, you need a certain level of socioeconomic success, not just for an individual's life, but also for the collective.

We have to eat, we need healthcare systems, and all of it. The challenge that we are experiencing currently is not that we pursue socioeconomic success, It is one, the definition of success has gotten so warped and the price that we pay for it.

It's completely deregulated. We are not pursuing that success with adherence to certain set of values. Our entire value system, whether it's family, but it's completely compromised in pursuit of the American dream. And when that happens, then it creates untold suffering. And as Father Richard Rohr, who we quote often, writes in his book, Falling Upward, says that in the process of avoiding necessary suffering, we create a lot of unnecessary suffering.

So this is the state that we are in. It's, we are not talking about not pursuing economic success, but it has to be safeguarded. The bigger adherence is to a value system. And that is what the, what we are talking about is not being attached to the outcome. It is actually living a life based on certain values,

And if living your life by certain values helps you get the outcome, so be it. But what we are very strongly focused is living our life based on certain values that are in alignment with our psychophysical nature. And that's a science. That's a social science that we have completely forgotten in the pursuit of pure economic success.

And we are paying the price for

Michael: it. Vipin, you have shared before, well, you are a CEO, a startup founder, you've worked in many high powered and prestigious organizations besides Upbuild. And you have shared on this podcast that you have never worked harder than in your time at Upbuild. And I, from knowing you, I know that that hard work is largely driven by the work that you feel so passionate about here and your desire to be able to contribute to other people and to serve them, to be a servant.

And I feel that in my own life as well. Like, I find myself staying up to hours that I never even did when I was at Goldman Sachs. Just because I love this work. So there's really is that like, when we get even a taste of living aligned with our values and contribution and being that identity of a servant, which is as Hari will share the only reliable identity that we can come back to that really is who we actually are, then the ambition is just there in spades, pretty amazing.

Rasanath: Did you see the ambition in people who have lived their lives like that? So she see the life of. Well, the Teresa, for example, I mean, the drive to do what she did in the places that she did it.

Vipin: I really appreciate, Michael, what you shared, and Rasnath, what you're commenting on that. I use my own example a lot in this regard, because I, just my own personal experience of my own drive, as you so nicely articulated, that is driven by alignment with a purpose, with a mission, with my nature,

Now, I'm not free from my ego by any stretch, but I think I'm operating less egoically than I was in previous pursuits. And so I can see that that hasn't changed my drive or motivation. In fact, it's only enhanced my drive because it's coming from a place that is much deeper, much higher than something that was much more externally driven before.

So just in closing here, a couple of clear takeaways from this conversation that I have or that I'd like to share.

One is. It is really important to identify your values because otherwise our pursuits are so externally oriented. And so we do this work a lot at up build, which is work on defining our values and prioritizing among them and seeing how much we're living in alignment with them.

Then I really appreciate the second thing that we've talked about here around using our outcomes to orient us but not be so attached to them because in the attachment is where we get stuck. It reminds me a lot of John Wooden and the famous UCLA basketball coach who would always focus on process, process, process, never care about the wins or the losses and ended up being the winningest coach in history.

So how do I focus on what I can control and the effort and know that the outcome is not entirely up to me?

Rasanath: I deeply appreciate that. And I wanted to quickly offer a caveat to your example of John Wooden. As we hear that, the way the ego internalizes it many times is, the best way to get your outcome is just focus on the process.

And that is not what this is.

Vipin: That's a strategy. It's still fully attached to the outcome.

Rasanath: It's fully attached to the outcome. and is basically saying, well, just think about the process so that you get the outcome. But this is not that. This is you are letting go of the outcome because you realize you have very little control on it.

Yeah. It's realizing that truth. Yes. And so going back to the basic definition of what does it feel like to be a true self? versus the ego. The ego will never relinquish control, which is why even as the ego hears this, it will say, well, this is the way to control the outcome. It's just focus on the process.

But that's what we are saying explicitly here is use the outcome as a guide. But you are at the same time relinquishing control of the outcome.

Vipin: I know we're trying to come to a close here, but I can't help myself but ask one more question related to what you just said, which is, I think many people would hear that comment that you actually don't have control over the outcome and say, well, of course I have some control, not full control, but I have a lot of control over that outcome.

Otherwise, why would I be in this? Physician, how would you respond to that?

Rasanath: The way we tie outcomes to causes is so myopic. this is also a characteristic of the ego, as spoken about in the Gita very directly, how the ego wants to feel is the cause of the outcome. It was me. It was me.

It was me. It was me. It was me. So the burden that I inherit from that and how it skews reality is significant. Because yes, we do. I play a role, my effort is important, but if I were to really think about how many things had to come together, had to fall in place for me to get my outcome that are actually not within my control, it's pretty significant.

Vipin: So you have to have the perspective to be able to zoom out enough to be able to all of the forces that are playing a part.

Rasanath: That's right. And there's a certain humility about that acknowledgement, right? There's a certain humility. Well, I have a role to play, but I don't control the entire thing. I just don't.

Vipin: There's a lot of, uh, data that says The luckiest or the most successful people believe they're the luckiest. They will say, what caused all of your success? And many will say, I was really lucky. There was lots of luck involved. That's a nod to exactly what you're saying. Yes, I have a role to play, but there was so much beyond me.

Rasanath: I'm recognizing this in my parenting, which is a microcosm of so many things. I mean, you're honest about parenting. Your people come and tell you, Oh my God, you have such amazing children. But if you are honest, really honest, you see, like, despite you, sometimes they turn out.

Michael: Well, you see that on the second child, right?

The first child, you might think, Oh, yeah, I am the one who's controlled everything. But then when you see that the second one turns out drastically different from the first one, and you've sort of done everything that's the same, you realize actually how little control you have.

Vipin: This is very helpful for me because as someone who has twins, I didn't have the benefit of having first and the second, so I typically see everything as my failures.

So it's good to know that they're going to be fine, despite my efforts.

Rasanath: And also, yeah, there is just, you realize that maybe there's just very little control, but I still have to play a role and I have to take that very seriously. And that's where you start to truly relinquish the attachment to the outcome, but do your, that's the movement to inspire duty.

You play a role.

Vipin: So one final question for you both, if I'm listening to this and I would really like to reduce my identification with my ego. I'm really genuinely interested in working on identifying less with my ego and more with my real self. And at the same time, I'm not ready to give up my material pursuits of success.

How would you guide me?

Michael: I think you have to spend the time. Really getting why the path that you're going down is not going to give you the thing that you want, and that's going to be painful.

It's going to take time and effort, but you could listen to this whole podcast. You have to go through it yourself. You have to really come to it yourself. And so, as Varatanath talked about a few times during this episode, You have to be honest. Like, how is this not working? How is this not working? And if you think it's working, ask yourself again, how is this not working?

And whether that's journaling or just writing a bullet and then writing another bullet and then writing another bullet, I get a lot of clarity on how it's not working. Be willing to step into your own suffering. And from that, there's a lot of motivation for change that can come.

Vipin: What you're saying is predicated on actually knowing what it is you want in the first place.

And I think a lot of us don't really understand what we want. We may adopt what others want and then pursue that, or we've inherited pursuits from our upbringing, our parents, our friends, our colleagues. But I think part of what's inherent in what you're saying is we also, we have to really unpack what it is that we want.

All the way down to it's bare bones, and then see exactly as you're saying it. How is my path not serving that pursuit of what I really want?

Michael: Yeah, I think that's true, and even without knowing what I do want, a lot of us have a sense of what we don't want, or the feelings that we don't want. And so, This might even be a more accessible point of how is this leading me to the feelings that I don't want.

Rasanath: I wanted to acknowledge is if you're asking the question that you asked within, there is a certain quality of honesty about it, and a sincerity to work through it. And to me, that spirit is the biggest, the most important, because without that internal honesty, we will not be able to on this path in a healthy way.

Thank you both for this conversation. I really hope that It provokes a lot of thought for those who are listening, seeing what am I actually pursuing and how am I pursuing it and what changes do I need to make.

Vipin: and I'm look forward to the next time we can be back together and talk about something very deeply meaningful and inspiring.

Michael: Thank you. Thank you, Vipin. Thanks, Rasanath