Our Complicated Relationship with Accountability

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Welcome to Upbuilding the Self. Hi everyone. This is Vipin and I'm here with Rasanath and Hari Prasada. Hey guys. Hello. Hey, so our topic for today is accountability and even as I say that word I can feel some anxiety cropping up for me. I have a complicated relationship with accountability.

Let's say last week during our internal team meeting, I shared an update about an intention that I had communicated to the team eight months ago. The reason I was sharing the update is that I wanted to convey the impact of that conversation we had had eight months ago on. on me and appreciate the team's role in helping me make a change

And I also wanted to hold myself accountable for the change that I had wanted to make and cultivate the habit of setting a goal, following through on my commitments, celebrating the milestones along the way and learning what do I need to do now to build on what I had started. It really felt honest and it felt celebratory also and it motivated me to go further on that goal that I had shared and I think Hari Prasada you had in particular called out the value of that type of accountability for me but for us all in Growing and advancing ourselves.

We do a lot of coaching at Upbuild and one valuable, very important reason for working with a coach is to ensure accountability for what we're trying to create in our lives as part of the structure of a coaching session is closing with. Accountability and what help does our client need to hold themselves accountable and usually that's the type of accountability that we choose for ourselves versus the kind of accountability that was even giving me anxiety mentioning the word accountability, which is some conventional view of accountability that usually involves an unbalanced power structure and penalties for unmet goals.

Right? So that's the type of accountability that we often have a complicated relationship with. So let's talk about accountability, why we have a complicated relationship with it, how can we understand it differently, and how to use it to benefit ourselves and everyone around us. My first question is, how do you both define accountability in your own words and why is it important?

Why are we talking about this?

Hari Prasada: This is, uh, so, so, so important to have the right understanding of accountability, because as you pointed out, if we don't, we actually shy away from the thing which is most helpful for our growth. So, well, we can say more about that. But the way we look at accountability is, it's The desire to make good on your commitment to yourself and the structure that will enable you to do that.

The desire to make good on your commitment to yourself. And the structure that will enable you to do that.

Vipin: I really appreciate that definition.

Hari Prasada: It's not something that I've thought about so clearly as in this moment when you're asking ,

Vipin: that's what I appreciate. , I appreciate how you're, you're able to conjure these definitions with such clarity based on all of your experience.

Thank

Hari Prasada: you. It helps to live with the principle that we're speaking about and then things become clear. And these conversations are so important to further hone in on what we're talking about, why and how to make the most of it.

Vipin: Yeah. So can you repeat it one more time?

Hari Prasada: Yeah. The desire to make good on your commitment to yourself.

and the structure that will enable you to do that.

Vipin: So one of the things that is striking me about this definition that you've given Hari Prasad is there's no mention of Your commitment to the company, the organization, the team in here, it's really about your commitment to yourself.

Hari Prasada: That's very deliberate.

Yeah.

Vipin: Maybe you can say more about that because we often think about accountability in the context of my job. As part of a team, and I have certain goals, and my boss needs to hold me accountable to those things. So how does that come into this definition?

Hari Prasada: Yeah, that's a kind of enslavement, what you're referring to.

That I don't choose. I'm just ensnared by the trap that I walked into. And now I'm in the trap. So what can I do? I've lost my free will.

Vipin: But I've chosen the job.

Hari Prasada: That's what I was going to say. So you've chosen the job, therefore you've chosen what comes with the job. And that means there's a kind of homework in the choosing of the job and in the exploring of the job when you're there.

Because you are signing up for something, and you have to really be willing to make the commitment to that, otherwise, you have to be able to talk about it, and you need an environment that is welcoming of those conversations, or it may not be the best environment, or you may not be the best fit. Because if you're going to a high octane startup that wants to 10x their growth over the next year, and you're thinking, well, I love my nights and weekends, and I just want to do things at my pace, that's probably a mismatch, right?

So accountability means That you are making a commitment to yourself and you're also holding yourself responsible for the choices that you're making. And it has to match.

Vipin: Yeah. Yeah. The other way I was thinking about this is desire to make good on your commitment. to yourself in an organizational setting.

Hopefully those, your commitments to the organization align with the commitments that you would be wanting to make.

Hari Prasada: They must. And you have to be invested in the outcomes of the organization if you're going to play any kind of beneficial role there. So you have to be aligned.

Vipin: But there's so many situations where someone is at work and they're not fully aligned with the mission or the goals of the organization, but they feel I'm here to do a job and I have to do that job well, and I'll do the best that I can.

And then what, what would you say to that person saying, Oh, these aren't sort of my Innate commitments that I would want to make but these are the commitments of the organization and I'm a part of this Larger purpose and so I have to do my part in it,

Hari Prasada: but that's integrity to actually Decide that they're employing me.

They're paying me to do a job so maybe I don't have a head over heels relationship with my job, but I'm still grateful for what I'm being given, and I need to give back.

Vipin: Hari Prasad, before you shared the definition, you had said, we shy away from the thing that is most helpful for our growth. And that thing you're referring to is accountability.

You're saying that accountability is the most helpful thing for our growth.

Hari Prasada: Yeah, because otherwise growth doesn't just happen magically, growth happens when we really mean it and we're willing to put our money where our mouth is, period.

Vipin: So almost even more than the instruction or the goal itself that we set, because we're trying to answer this question, not just what is accountability, but why is it important and you're elevating it to the level of actually without accountability, nothing will advance.

It's so easy for me to say,

Hari Prasada: yes, I want to offer this to the world. I want to create. A place where everyone feels at home and everybody is fulfilling their potential. I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to do this. What are you willing to sacrifice to make that happen? How is that going to happen?

That's really lovely that you have that desire. We also have to check how sincere that desire is. And accountability is a great measure. What are you willing to do to make that happen?

Vipin: So inherent in accountability is also sacrifice.

Hari Prasada: Yes.

Vipin: What would you add to what is so important about accountability in all settings of our lives, in our personal lives, in our professional lives?

What would you say? Well,

Rasanath: I saw that left the definition. I think it was unpacking the spirit of accountability. The pure spirit of accountability is how I would say I thought that was brilliant. And the way I have always seen accountability and I also quickly, I looked at what Merriam Webster said about accountability and accountable.

It comes down fundamentally to the idea of being responsible and we use the word being responsible for our lives. And how do you measure responsibility is by having the desire and the structure that measures whether I'm living up to what I desire. So ultimately it comes down to accountability is a measure of my sense of responsibility, which, you know, even when you apply it in the context of work, when I signed up for a role, many times I sign up for a role because of the attractiveness.

around the title and the pay without fully potentially understanding what the expectations of that role is, what responsibilities it comes with. And part of the challenge is, and we have seen this happen in multiple organizations I have experienced it firsthand. And I think I unwittingly have also been guilty of doing it.

When we take up a position, we like the perks of the position. We like the power and the authority that it gives. But we don't necessarily really think about what responsibility it brings. And the way our egos tend to work is we always want the goal without the process. It's the, how can I get to what I want without having to pay for it?

Hari Prasada: That's a cheating mentality. The ego brings a cheating mentality.

Rasanath: Which is why the word accountability can also be scary because it's going to draw things out from a point of view of where I feel I'm not willing to pay the price. The other way that it also comes across is because it also brings up the feelings of failure.

If I'm being held accountable, what I will be seen for is falling short. Which again, when you think about it in terms of responsibility, and accountability measuring responsibility, the question typically is, did I do everything in my capacity? And if I did, it's not necessarily about the outcome because the outcome is many times outside of our control, but was I really responsible?

Did I do everything in my capacity? And sometimes you'd see, you know what, I could have done more. And when the spirit around accountability is very healthy, you actually take responsibility for where your responsibility fell short. Funny, when you mentioned

Vipin: responsibility, I was thinking, why is it that I have a positive association with the word responsibility and a slightly left of center, slightly negative association with accountability, because you're defining them as one in the same.

And then when you said more about Well, you are going to be measured, and you may fall short, and you may fail. And I go, Oh, that's why! That's why I like responsibil Let's talk about responsibilities, and accountability has a different association with it.

Rasanath: Because accountability is a measure of your responsibility, and your sense, your spirit of responsibility is how I think about it.

Hari Prasada: How much is it really there? How much are you really wanting to be responsible? The desire to be responsible is responsibility. So how much is that their accountability as a measure as well as not the same?

Vipin: What I would love for this conversation to where it would take us all take us three, or at least myself and people who are listening is to change our association with accountability to change with this word.

And I think we're kind of beginning this. That's what I would like to come out of this for myself.

Hari Prasada: On that note, you mentioned at the outset, an inspiration that you had on this subject was Holding yourself accountable through the means of this team. And that's also important that you're holding yourself accountable, but you're putting the team in your service to help you do that, which is really ideal.

And we should speak more about that as we go. But you mentioned that I had said. About accountability being so important. And I remember in that exchange, you were shy about taking up our time with this, and that was very humble of you. And I was saying, no, this is so important. This is the most important thing.

And I'm so happy that you're, you're setting such a high example. And then I said something which Rasanath you kindly reflected back to me as helpful, which is. That we are meant to celebrate each other. That is a big part of accountability is celebrating the successes that are coming and you were sharing your milestone.

And I was experiencing the inspiration personally, as well as the impact on the team. And that is a huge part of accountability. If that's not there, then it's so dry and empty. So why would we change our association with accountability if there's no celebration of the beauty of it?

Vipin: You're already working on me, uh, moving, moving this association a little bit more to the right by, by recalling that experience that we, we shared together.

So can you share, either of you or both of you, a personal experience where accountability, how you've used accountability to have a significant impact on you or other people in your life?

Rasanath: I can very clearly say that in my relationship with Hari Prasad, without actually understanding the word accountability and what it means, I have actually experienced being held accountable.

And I'm going to reference being in Enneagram Type 3, there is a way in which I can say things that I actually don't really mean. There is a way in which I can say things to impress without necessarily having the depth of follow through around it. And one very specific example that comes to mind for me was how you have corrected me over the years about coming late when we agreed to meet.

And it was very uncomfortable when you have brought up those points. But I see in retrospect, how much it has helped me to work on my own spirit of authenticity and say what I can actually live up to has been extremely helpful. And if you did not hold me accountable, then yeah, I would have missed a very big part of, I can say a huge part of my growth and what is so important in the work that we do.

I would have just completely missed it. I don't know if you remember our conversations around this. Sure do, sure do. It was

Hari Prasada: uncomfortable for me, but I felt I wanted to offer that and it was something which I felt strongly about.

Rasanath: I think what made it so important and so, I would say, uncomfortably irresistible was because of the purity of the spirit behind the holding somebody accountable.

And that purity of the spirit is extremely critical. It is done in the service of the other person, not in objectifying the other person to do something that makes me look better, right? This is again where the way we have experienced accountability typically is the person holding us accountable is more likely doing it for their benefit than the benefit of the person that they are holding accountable and that spirit is so important.

Hari Prasada: I deeply appreciate that. Thank you. You're very humble. I was just thinking that there has to be higher purposes in mind for accountability. So, thinking about what culture do we want to create? Do we want a culture where we just show up when we show up? Do we want a culture where we say one thing and then we do another thing?

Do we want a culture where we really honor that this person is so important that their time is so important? Every moment is so important. That's also a spiritual value that we have inherited. And I definitely do benefit from that, because when I'm feeling concerned about something or feeling frustrated by something, to be able to speak it out is helpful for me, and also I'm a part of the culture, so I benefit in that way as well.

It wasn't a self application, but at the same time, there has to be higher purposes in mind. And I'm no angel at all. I just want to serve. That's it.

Vipin: Coming back to the definition that Hari Prasad, you shared a desire to make good on your commitment to yourself and the structure that will enable you to do that.

In this case, it sounds like, I don't know, Rasanath, if you had, I mean, it must've been an implicit commitment anyway, when you both talk about showing up on time. And you had an implicit, if not an explicit commitment there. This sounds like an accountability that was not an explicit accountability, but more of an implicit one.

Or am I misunderstanding it?

Rasanath: I think any relationship that requires commitment has a limit of accountability in it. And I wish I could say that in the particular example that I gave. That my, my accountability was implicit in the sense that I actually meant I think it was purely explicit without it having.

So what was being worked on here was the desire, like, do you actually desire to make commitment. So many times we make the commitment, but we don't necessarily desire it, right? That's why the connection is so important.

Vipin: It would be hard to fulfill a commitment that you don't have any desire for.

Rasanath: Which is also why in work settings, we see that a commitment is made because I'm afraid that if I don't make the commitment, It's almost like, well, let me buy time by making the commitment.

Even if I don't believe in it, because somehow I will, I will do everything possible to sort of live up to it. But the, the desire has to be there. Everything has to be fueled by the desire to make the commitment. Otherwise, accountability loses its meaning.

Vipin: Okay. It's clear to me, at least from the discussion so far, the importance of accountability.

What is it and the importance of it? What I'd love for us to talk about is how one actually does this, and I would like to talk about it in three scenarios. One is from a personal standpoint, there is an intention I have or a goal I have, and how do I use accountability in that setting? And then two and three are really in a work setting.

In a work setting, there are goals in the organization, goals in my job, and how do I use accountability? You know, number two is from the standpoint of An employee to hold myself accountable to use accountability to, to make good on my commitments and what is needed by the organization. And then part three is from the standpoint of a manager, how do I use accountability to help my teams do this in a way that is not smelling of the complicated version that I had shared earlier where it feels this negative association where someone is holding me under their thumb and instead I feel, I feel inspired.

Hari Prasada: The first thing is, comes back to desire. You have to be honest with yourself. When you're saying, I want to hold myself accountable. Do you mean it? How much do you mean it? That's the most important thing.

Because if you truly mean it, you will arrange things in such a way that it will happen. And if you're thinking well I hope that it happens, then you're relying on some magic, but if you truly desire, then you won't rely on some magic, and you won't hold yourself accountable to something which is unrealistic.

You will ensure that it is realistic, and you will get opinions from other trustworthy people to make sure that it happens. You're seeing it according to the reality. So the desire and the honesty around that is the first foundational piece. Do I really want to make good on my commitment and then what is required?

What will motivate me? What will help me? What will give me the resources, the energy, the support that I need to make good on it?

Vipin: you started with first of all I have to have the desire to actually hold myself accountable in the first place I have to want to hold myself accountable You And I think this was implicit later as you were talking, but that desire to hold myself accountable is predicated on the desire for the underlying thing in the first place.

So, and this is something we do a lot in coaching, which is. What is important about this? And when it's really deep, the why has been deeply understood, then it is easier to want to be held accountable, to truly want to be held accountable, because you want to make that change.

Hari Prasada: Yes, I'm gonna give you the extreme case here. I and Rasanath We've made vows to hold ourselves accountable, literally made vows, and there's a whole ceremony for our spiritual practices and our spiritual journeys. Where we have spoken what our vows are before a sacred fire and people who are very, very esteemed, and one person in particular that we ask to hold ourselves accountable, our teacher, our gurus.

And that is I mean, there's really nothing more extreme than that. But that is to show how deep the commitment is. And the thing is we see other people make similar commitments, not understanding. The power of that mechanism or the importance of the desire behind the commitment, and then it doesn't go very well, unfortunately, but for us, it's very challenging to keep to our commitments, which is why we have to make a vow about it.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have to do that. But these commitments are really, really important. The mechanisms can range from a vow and like a real ceremonial acceptance of the gravity behind that, to something that I write down for myself. And I just check in with myself about and actually the latter, though it's much smaller, it can have a lot of gravity.

It can be extremely grave.

Vipin: Okay, thank you. So on this first scenario, from a personal standpoint, you're saying the first thing we need to do is understand the desire that, well, what is the thing that we want?

In the first place, what do we want to change? What is our goal? And we have to really deeply understand its importance to us and really want it. And then two and three, what follows from there is the desire to be held accountable then comes more naturally because we actually really want the thing that we want to be held accountable to.

And then from there, the structures that we put around that, which is how am I going to break this down over what time period? Who will I enroll to help me and to check in with me? All of those pieces are also very important. They're very fundamental tactical pieces, but that it's all predicated on deeply desiring the goal in the first place.

Rasanath: A hundred percent. I've worked with a client and we discussed accountability. every single session we close it with. So what I have to ask this client, so write down exactly what you're accountable for and the why. And the next question is who and the why behind the who, who's going to hold you accountable and why is that person the right person to hold you accountable?

And that answer is very important because you can just ask somebody to hold you accountable, but not respect. But not respect them enough to be actually held accountable by them. Ah, great. The reason why this is important is it's a very tight structure. You're putting yourself in a place where you don't want to escape because you realize that you're not going to cheat yourself anymore.

You don't want to be unconsciously absorbed in self deceit. That's what you don't want. So the mechanism around accountability is very tight so that it prevents you from actually escaping.

Vipin: Yeah. The other thing I'm thinking is you're saying this is First of all, I just want to repeat what you said, which is very, very helpful.

So you go the what you're going to hold yourself accountable to why this thing, who will you enroll in holding you accountable? And then the why behind the who, which I really appreciate that addition. And then I was thinking about, we talked about measuring earlier and that the thing that taints our association with accountability is this fear of failing.

So then I was thinking, well, Even as we make these, they have these desires that are deep and we understand them deeply. We may still fail on our goals there. And so I imagine if I think I'm going to fail, One is that can become self fulfilling prophecy. Two is I may not want to, the why behind the who, I may not want someone who will really test me there, but, but then I was thinking, well, then it comes back to how, what is the structure I set up?

How do I set up the increments in a way that will build momentum versus Suffocate me by making it too big, failing and feeling demotivated by it. And all of that is true in the workplace as well. Absolutely. So what would you say to someone who feels like, well, I never make good on my commitments. Like I have a history of making new year's resolutions, for example.

And the whole world knows that. 95 percent of people don't make good on those commitments. So I just don't even try holding myself accountable. That seems like something we do at work, but why would I do that to myself in my personal life?

Hari Prasada: Yeah, I've encountered that before that question of why should I do that in my personal life?

Rastanath, you used a word that had been very much in my mind, which I want to emphasize further, and that is respect. So it starts with respecting the commitment to yourself. And then it incorporates the respect for those who are helping you make good on that commitment. So first is we have to respect the commitment that we're making.

Otherwise it's not the right commitment. Otherwise we're just being ensnared into something personally or professionally. We just sort of landed up in the trap and now our free will is gone and people are going to punish us. That's a terrible way of living. It's a terrible way of living. And unfortunately it's so common and it's so subtle, but that's how we feel.

We've lost our agency.

Vipin: And it becomes a habit very easily. Absolutely. And then you apply that

Hari Prasada: across the board. Yeah, so that has to change.

Vipin: I love what you said, respect the commitment.

Hari Prasada: Yeah, you have to respect the commitment. So there has to be, you have to reclaim your agency. We all have to reclaim our agency and decide what choices we are making and respect them.

And that means they may not be choices that we love with all of our heart and soul. But we know why we're doing it because it's the need of the hour. And there's a respect for that. So there are lots of things that I don't absolutely love doing. And it's like, who loves changing their baby's diaper? And I was often using that metaphor at the beginning stages of Upbuild or when we took up build out of the monastery, which felt like another beginning that I have to change the baby's diapers.

There's so many things that are. really annoying, sometimes excruciating, that go along with that, but I know exactly why I'm doing it. It's the need of the hour, and I'm motivated, and I have to do it. I can't just leave the poop in the diaper. It's a, that's horrible. You can't do that. That's inhuman. So I know exactly why I'm doing it, and I respect it, though it irritates me.

I respect it and I'm grateful at the end of the day. Does it take its toll on me? Do I want to be doing that for the rest of my life? I mean, I have other visions, but at the same time, this is the need of the hour. I respect it. And so then I also have to respect the people that I'm choosing to help me be accountable to myself.

And whether that's my boss or my partners, my peers, my friends, my spouse, whatever it is, whoever I'm accepting to help me. Be responsible to myself. I gave the example of my guru who carries responsibility for my spiritual life and the mission of Upbuild, which is so dear and the reason we do anything to help people realize who they are.

You have to respect, otherwise there's no power to it. The respect for those people is why you choose them and how you create the leverage. And in a coaching relationship, that is essential. I always emphasize that accountability and coaching is the means of success. It starts with respecting the relationship.

Don't choose to be coached by somebody that you don't respect. It makes no sense. There has to be a regard that is deep and deepening. At first when the relationship is new, we may need to give benefit of the doubt and be openhearted, but there's a reason why we would sign up for that kind of relationship.

There has to be a deep enough respect and then allow that to deepen and deepen over time, which is why in most of my coaching relationships. They're very longstanding by some grace because both as coach and as coachee, one who needs coaching, which I absolutely do. I never graduated from that. I always want to be making personal advancement in my life in every way.

So I will have longstanding relationships where the power of accountability based on that respect is. ever present and increasing. That's the leverage to make strides. Thank you.

Vipin: Very powerful to underscore what you need to make this work and also the power to transform ourselves if we have clarity on why we're doing what we're doing and we have respect for those commitments and the people that we're enrolling.

That's. Beautifully articulated. Thank you. Hundred percent. Thank you. Let's take this to the workplace. A lot of what you said would apply and okay, now you're an individual who works at an organization. How do I use accountability? Because I may not have the same deep desire that you described because like we talked about earlier, it's, it's a job and I have.

I've been, I received certain goals and I'll try to make them as much my own as possible. But how do we do that? How do we use accountability more effectively in the workplace? And then as part of that, especially for leaders who need to hold entire teams and organizations accountable or they have to hold themselves accountable for the entire organization's So how do they do that?

Hari Prasada: One critical piece of this is humanizing the whole thing. Because it gets so corporate and impersonal, and yeah, you know, we have these benchmarks, we have these OKRs, or what have you, but that becomes so, I said before, dry and unmotivating. It's really when you humanize it and you think, how is this going to help me to develop as a person?

And how is this going to help my team to thrive? And how are the people here and the clients or customers or the people that are being served by this organization? How are they going to be benefited? If I really take this on and what is my responsibility and gratitude for what this organization is giving me?

How am I being served by the organization where I want to give back?

Vipin: So you're saying is I have to actually personalize accountability, even if there's a goal that's been handed to me, how is it going to help me develop as a person? How's this going to help my team grow and thrive? How is this going to help my customers?

How is it going to benefit them? All of these things I have to have a more clear relationship with the things that I'm pursuing and the impact in a way that will give me that desire that we've been talking about.

Hari Prasada: Yeah. My boss, my leadership, there are studies that show that our boss makes up the majority of our experience in the workplace.

Like the impact of our boss on us is so huge. And so if we're not aligned, I mean, it's natural that we won't be completely aligned, but if there's such a disconnect That we don't trust our boss or our boss is making us miserable. How long are we going to stay in that state? Now, obviously there are constraints and we have to be careful.

We don't have all opportunities. And when the market is down, that's a whole other thing, right? But to the extent that we can, we should be considerate and we should recognize that even if we are misaligned, Our boss is a human being. What is that person going through? What is that person struggling with, suffering through?

What is that person trying to achieve? How is that person being held accountable against his or her own will? Like, there's so many factors here, and when we keep it impersonal, We keep it very selfish and egocentric and unmotivating. But when we understand the human dimension things shift and we can make more informed and motivating decisions according to what is possible.

Vipin: What if I think about a goal that I've been given and I don't see it helping me develop as a person? Is that ever a possibility or that's just a limitation of my vision? Like, and any goal that I'm pursuing, I should always be able to see how it can help me develop as a person, how it can help my team thrive, customers, etc.

What, what happens if I, I just don't

Rasanath: see those things? The first thing for accountability to work in the healthiest way is there has to be mutual participation. I talk about this every time when, you know, there is a feedback session. The first question I, people like managers, leaders tell me, well, I want to give this particular feedback to this person.

And so my first question is, well, did you set, did you clearly set the goals and was there a willing participation in those goals? And sometimes the response is, you know what, I didn't clearly say it. So then the leader has to hold themselves accountable for not doing

Hari Prasada: that. This

Rasanath: is where subtly the responsibility gets transferred to the person that works for you, because.

Well, I want to give you this feedback that you're not doing your well, did you set it up in a way that the person so the biggest thing that for accountability to work in a very healthy way is the setup of it. Which I don't think is done with that much care and intention, because when everybody's a willing participant in it, then the accountability works very well.

And the first thing I always have to check, can you help me give feedback to this person? And the first thing I have to ask as well, was that person a willing participant in this?

Vipin: I'm reflecting back on my own association with the word accountability, and it always feels like the final stage. But what you're saying here is the set.

When I think of an accountability conversation, the setup of an accountability conversation, that doesn't feel scary. Actually, that feels much more. I think it feels positive, especially if I'm a willing participant, as you're saying in, in designing, designing the thing. And then there's, there's obviously buy in and also I feel quite motivated versus the.

something that's being handed down, but sometimes we don't have that opportunity to get a willing participation, mutual participation in a goal.

Rasanath: Why?

Hari Prasada: Why is that?

Rasanath: So this goes back to what Hariprasad said, I don't agree. And this also irritates me. So when, when they say, well, disagree, but commit, there is something, there is something to that.

Well, I disagree. I disagree, but you know what? There is something there that makes me come in because I see that, well, I'm in this position. I potentially understand why you're asking me to do it. Although it's very uncomfortable and I don't want to do it. There is something there. It may have the feeling of changing diapers, but there is a, you know what?

I get it. That's very, I like, I don't want to be doing this this way, but I understand it and I'm going to, I'm going to step into it. To me, that is the most basic level of participation you need.

Vipin: Right. And what happens if you're at Loggerheads where I'm saying, here's what we need to grow in this business.

And this is what, this is what you need to achieve. And the other person is saying, that's not possible. Like here's the best that I think we can do. And so there's a big gap between those two.

Hari Prasada: That's

Vipin: the bigger issue.

Hari Prasada: Yeah. The bigger issue is that gap.

Rasanath: So you can't have accountability. And this goes back to Patrick Lencioni's, but you know, the table groups work on the, in the pyramid of.

You know, how you reach towards a very healthy outcome, you know, he draws a pyramid. And the first thing he says before even conflict, he actually says the most fundamental piece is trust. Trust, exactly. When you don't have trust, then the second piece, which is accountability, doesn't live. It can't live.

Right, so in the example that you gave, Vipin, can I trust that the other person, one, is coming from a good place and has a pretty good judgment about the situation that is very important for a leader to assess. And if I feel like, you know what, I have a better judgment of the situation because of the vantage point that I sit in, that has to be explicitly talked about.

Hari Prasada: And that could be both ways. That could be I'm more on the ground as the person who's reporting in. So I have certain visibility that my leader doesn't have. And likewise, from a leadership vantage point, I may be seeing a larger scope. I should be seeing a larger scope than the person who is reporting to me.

So there has to be that mutual respect, trust, understanding, and you make the goals and the commitments accordingly. And when there's not alignment, that's the bigger issue that has to be worked out before you hold somebody accountable. Otherwise that's a setup for disaster. That's not a setup for positive accountability.

You can't impose onto somebody and then be like, well, why didn't this work out? It doesn't make sense. And to your question earlier, Vipin about. Well, what happens if I don't think this is going to help with my development? Should I take this on anyway? Do I always have to see it in that light? I think we have free will, which means we only choose.

What will help with our development because ultimately everything is helping with our integrity to live up to our commitments and that is an ongoing process of development and it's an ongoing process of building respect and trust in our relationships and trying to serve the best that we can. So why commit to something where that is out of the equation?

Now it may be something as mundane as like, Doing my taxes. I'm, I'm committed to paying my taxes. And that doesn't feel like it's growing me as a person, but the alternative will definitely make sure that I don't grow as a person. So you can look at it from that vantage point that there is an integrity that I'm maintaining by making good on this.

And I need the mechanisms that would help me. I mean, would you pay your taxes if the IRS wasn't holding you accountable? Some people might, some people definitely wouldn't. We've seen. So this is so important to see everything in context and to choose everything. Might I choose a different tax percentage if I had the power?

Sure. But there's a principle here that I don't get to make that choice. I choose to live in this country. I choose to live in this world in a certain way. There's a cost to that. So here we are. I pay my taxes.

Rasanath: Sometimes accountability is set up as a structure because you don't trust what the other person, and this is a very common thing.

I don't actually trust you, so I'm going to hold you accountable.

Vipin: These are examples of misapplications of accountability, which I wanted to do about it. Yeah. Very good.

Rasanath: Very good.

Vipin: But there is a place for that. I don't trust, so I'm going to hold you accountable. That seems like an odd way to put it, but I understand what you're saying.

I want you to unpack this more. How would you do? How did that work? I don't trust you. So I, yeah, so I put this in place. You have to prove yourself to me by meeting this.

Rasanath: Or, or, or I have to make absolutely sure. that you don't like, for example, the, the, uh, the IRS rules, there is enough people who will actually evade.

If you think about any regulation or regulatory pieces here, right? Like, uh, when you really look at, well, why are regulations in place is because there is the human tendency to exploit,

Vipin: right? Interesting. I actually trust or the, the, the nation, the country doesn't trust citizens. to pay taxes independently out of a regulatory body.

Rasanath: You actually see the spirit of taxes, the actual spirit of taxes. The spirit of taxes is, well, I live in this country and I have to give back.

Hari Prasada: Exactly.

Rasanath: The fact that I live in this country means that I have to actually, I have to give a portion of what I am earning, what the country is facilitating for me.

Back to that's a commitment that I'm making with gratitude,

Hari Prasada: with gratitude for what I'm receiving now, the corruption and all of that is another thing, but that's the basic principle.

Rasanath: So when you again, when you hear the word tax, it's like it doesn't bring pleasant things to us. But when you actually see the the true spirit of it.

the true spirit of it is actually giving. It's coming from a place of like, well, this, this place facilitates so much. Now, the reason why, why the word tax again, uh, becomes so painful partially is because I feel like I'm not getting the facilities that the country promises me.

Hari Prasada: And the money is not being used in the way that I expect.

Rasanath: So now I'm made to give money when I'm no longer being facilitated. Then that just completely ruins the spirit of it. Now there is conversely, there is the other side of it where I want the country to give me so that I can become wealthy and then I don't want to give anything back.

Vipin: The free rider problem was one person.

There's plenty of other people to, they don't need my specific contribution.

Rasanath: Yes. So now that's a tricky situation because then you're, you're exploiting the system. So, which is why my guru's guru would always say that the world is full of exploiters and the exploited

Hari Prasada: cheaters

Rasanath: and the cheated. And you see just the taxation system itself, like the way it works, is people on both sides, the people imposing the taxes are not necessarily in integrity.

The people on the other side who are supposed to pay the taxes are not in integrity, right? So you have a, you have a problem. It's the system of accountability. It's broken. It's not the accountability. It's the system. The spirit of it is broken.

Hari Prasada: But law enforcement is an example of accountability, which some people do not think about as accountability, and some people choose not to hold themselves accountable to.

But there are consequences for that. So if we're not really living with integrity and we're not able to be adequate contributors, but rather we become detractors to our environment, then accountability is necessary to solve for that. But that is a very, very sacred thing, actually, to keep an environment, pure, clean, safe, motivating, inspiring for the greater good.

Thank you.

Rasanath: So one of the things about deregulation, and this is a highly debated, very sensitive topic, and I want to make this applicable to like, you know, even the macroeconomic scenarios, right? The thing with deregulation is that it implicitly assumes that us conditioned human beings. can hold ourselves accountable to a certain way of living.

Now, the human history has sufficiently proved that that is not true. So now it questions, well, the motivations of, well, why was deregulation brought in the first place, right? So not that you didn't have data, Not that, oh, I just trusted, but you see that in order for, for, for some people to then not have any accountability, you need to deregulate.

Hari Prasada: We also can't emphasize enough how the right people and the right principles are necessary behind accountability. If you don't respect law enforcement because you see discrepancies in the way that they're operating, that's a huge societal issue. That is horrific. So accountability must always be executed with respect.

according to the people and the principles, and when it's not, then we suffer. We all suffer.

Rasanath: We all suffer. Which is why when the system or the individual who's holding somebody accountable is not themselves accountable, the entire system breaks down.

Hari Prasada: All then collapses.

Rasanath: It's just, it's just a complete destruction of the system.

Hari Prasada: That's why our gurus make vows to their gurus. who make vows to their gurus, who make vows to their gurus, because that is accountability. That's how it flows and how there's integrity and sanctity to our commitment and that nobody thinks they're above that. We're always trying to be humble and honest and motivated in our sense of service to ourselves and to everyone else in our lives.

Rasanath: And then this question comes, uh, several times for me when I coach founders, one founder would say, you know, well, somebody needs to hold, hold him accountable for this. And but my, my first question would always, well, so what are you accountable to? Because as soon as you're coming in with a sense that I need to hold this person accountable, Then it has to be very clear to me, and in a bunch of cases, the person has to like really sit and think and say, you know, well, I don't have that for myself.

So how can I, how can I, how can I do that for somebody else?

Hari Prasada: Nobody's above the law and nobody is above the need for help to make good on their commitments.

Vipin: In the example you gave Rasanath, the founders can hold each other accountable. Absolutely. That's, I always say,

Rasanath: mutual accountability. That's

Vipin: right. One founder is the CEO and there's a reporting relationship, but that relationship is a special relationship among co-founders.

So they can hold each other accountable. That's, they

Rasanath: must accountable. Well, that's mutual because the commitment, again, it comes back to the desire to make a commitment, right? Like and the commitment. then sets the foundation for the mutual accountability. And it has to be mutual accountability. Now, the tricky part here is, can I trust?

So again, between founders, it goes back to like, well, if you don't work on the trust, you cannot create accountability. And then accountability is weaponized. And I think that by holding somebody accountable, it will create the trust that I want, but it doesn't work that way. You need trust to create accountability, and the accountability will further reinforce it, but trust is more fundamental.

Vipin: I think people think that accountability will lead to trust because if the person meets the measurements, then I can start to trust

Rasanath: them. That may situationally work, but that will not sustainably work. So sometimes the person may respond out of fear because you, you know, you put out, you basically say, you know, if you don't, then there are consequences.

You're not really looking at the more fundamental problem, which is

Hari Prasada: And what is the alignment between the individuals that are in this situation and the context for that situation? So if somebody is not making good on their commitments, Do they really belong? The accountability is there to ensure that we are all in the same boat, that we are all in agreement, striving towards a goal together.

And if somebody is not doing that, then what does that say? So accountability doesn't always feel rosy and like, Oh, I just, I love being held accountable. It doesn't always feel that way. Nor is it on the other side. I love holding people accountable. Sometimes it's really difficult. If somebody is not making good on their commitments, it's difficult on both sides.

It should be, but what is. the higher principle here? Why are we committed to these goals in the first place?

Vipin: Okay, we have covered a lot of ground here. We've covered, uh, personal accountability, professional accountability, societal accountability, IRS accountability, deregulation.

I'm Many minutes ago, ask you to talk about these three different scenarios. I think we, we've certainly covered both the personal and the professional from the perspective of sort of an employee and a manager. How do you do this? How do you do accountability? Well, I think it's clear to me that what happens when there is no accountability, it's.

Our progress can be non existent, it can be random, it can be chaotic, uh, and so having a, Hari Prasad, as you said, a desire to make good on our commitments to ourselves and a structure that will enable us to do that is critical for our growth and the growth of our organizations. And then we've also talked about how is accountability, we've shared some examples of accountability being misapplied, accountability being a substitute for trust, or the lack thereof, or the lack thereof, especially the lack thereof.

What final advice would you give as we close?

Hari Prasada: I think we're experiencing so many societal breakdowns on the level of accountability. And one of them is the breakdown of the marital system. We don't recognize that when we make a commitment to somebody, it's not like, yeah, but then there's an escape clause.

There's a reason why we make vows and we like to think that we don't take them cheaply, but again, we should look deeper than that.

Am I really respecting the person that I am holding myself accountable to? And this happens in relationships with friends. It happens in all kinds of relationships. We try to get people off of our backs, or we say things that we don't mean. We take things cheaply.

We treat people as cheap, unconsciously. This is destructive. Accountability is the most important thing to ensure that we don't do that. That we don't take our own lives cheaply, because at the end of the day, that's what we're doing. We take everything cheaply. Without the gravity, we're taking ourselves cheaply.

So I, I would ask everyone to really consider how is it? That I am making good on my commitments.

And choose one thing and make good on it.

Vipin: Thank you. You're reinforcing the importance of respecting the commitment that you shared earlier, but with a whole new power to it.

Rasna, final advice.

Rasanath: When we begin to have a sincere, genuine desire for accountability in our life, to me, that is one of the fundamental indicators of the health of someone's consciousness. And, uh, the reason for that is I see how easily I can cheat myself and I have made the decision that I'm not going to do that again.

And that's where human growth actually starts. That's where real, true, real growth has the chance of flourishing.

Vipin: I so appreciate this. I was smiling because I was thinking right as right before you started talking, I was thinking I was checking in with myself about how am I feeling about accountability right now?

How's my association with this word shifted, which is what I said at the outset was one of my own goals for this conversation. And I, I noticed that it had I feel like, uh, it has really helped to anchor the importance of.

This asset, this resource in our growth, this mechanism.

and, and then I was smiling when you said the desire for accountability is a sign of health thought. Oh. So maybe you both have helped me become more healthy in this hour. So I appreciate that very much.

Rasanath: The only thing I would say to that is the, I have only experienced you as a person who has always wanted the spirit of accountability and what shifted in course of this conversation is the association with the word

pre existing spirit that was unearthed has the association of the word was clarified.

Vipin: Yeah, I appreciate it. Somewhere it was somewhere in the middle for me. I have to say like. There's things that I do really deeply appreciate, but then there's some anxiety that's also associated with it as we talked about, but I think you've helped to dispel some of that anxiety for me.

And, and actually I'm, I hope that this has had that impact on, on other people who are listening and really motivating people to find their connection with accountability and make these commitments. in their lives to see, to see their own growth, the growth of their character, the advancement of their Things that are most important to them.

Thank you both very much. I, uh, always grow from these conversations. So I'm very grateful and I look forward to the next one.