The Shock Point and Red Flag Fears: What Makes Us Slip Down the Levels of Consciousness

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Vipin: Hi everyone. This is Vipin and I'm joined by my partners Hari Prasada and Rasanath, and we'd like to welcome you to another episode of the Upbuild Enneagram Library. Today we're exploring a dimension of the Enneagram that's usually not among the first things people learn, but profoundly shapes. How we show up in the world, our transitional fears.

These are the fears that flare up when we're moving between levels of consciousness and when something specific in us is being challenged or disrupted or asked to grow. And they're different from our basic fears, but deeply connected to them. They're like. The early warning signals of the ego trying to hold its ground.

So in this conversation, we wanna bring these fears into the light, what they are, how they operate in real time, and how understanding them can help us navigate our inner landscape with more clarity, compassion, and choice. So to begin, Hari and Ana, what do we mean by transitional fears in the Enneagram?

And how are they different, but related to the basic fears,

Hari Prasada: The transitional fears. This is as far as I am remembering. This is a term that we coined for grouping together two different fears that sit at the junction between two different levels of consciousness.

And if we play into that fear, we will transition in consciousness. And transitioning, not upward, but downward. In other words, we slip down a level from the creative to the controlling the upper to the average, or the controlling to the destructive, the average to the lower regions and the two fears that are encompassed by these transitional fears as we call them.

Are the shock point, fear and the red flag fear. Those terms come from Don Reso and Russ Hudson at the Enneagram Institute, as do the teachings around this and the shock point fear is meant to, as you alluded to, Vipin, give you a warning sign. That, oh, I'm on the edge here. I'm teetering on the edge of consciousness here.

I'm bordering on something that is going to be very dangerous for my wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around me. So the shock point fear is. A fear that's related to the basic fear. It's a derivative of it, but which feels very, very tangible. Whereas the basic fear is something existential that I carry with me.

It's big, it's broad, it's, I don't even know that I'm operating on the basic fear at all, but it's governing me and it sends me to this shock point fear, which feels more tangible. Although we're still often not aware of it, that's another thing. We have to become aware of it, but it's easier to become aware of the shock point fear, which when we take as real and we react to, it, sends us from a secure place to a reactive.

Insecure, controlling place where we want to control other people and circumstances for validation, controlling consciousness. Likewise, the red flag fear. The red flag fear sits below that, uh, between the controlling consciousness and the destructive consciousness, and it's a wake up call. Don and Russ also talk about it as a wake up call.

That if I play into this fear, if I accept it as real, again, this is mostly unconscious, but if I accept it as real, even unconsciously, as we mostly do and I play into it, I become reactive. I start basing my life's decisions and actions on this. Then that will send me. Into the destructive realm, and now I really, really am in bad shape.

I will be harmful to myself in such a way that it will be difficult to climb up the levels of consciousness at all, and I can be harmful to other people. And the lower I go, the more I follow that. It cannot but end horribly.

Vipin: Would it be fair to say that the basic fear is more existential and the transitional fears are more circumstantial or situational?

Hari Prasada: Well, the transitional fears are related to the existential, so the basic fear, as we said, is definitely existential. The transitional fears are related to that existential fear. Yet circumstances tend to trigger it and make it more front and center for us. So it's not exactly that, it's circumstantial because the basic fear is living in us and the shock point fear and the red flag fear

Vipin: our derivatives of that.

Hari Prasada: It's just derivatives of that. Yeah. It's just ways of seeing it playing out in real time if we're so fortunate, 'cause then we can catch it, which we'll talk more about, but. Yes. Circumstances often serve as the triggers,

Vipin: right, but I guess circumstances also serve as the triggers for our basic fear, even if it's living within us all the time.

Exactly,

Hari Prasada: exactly.

Rasanath: I think the way the basic fear is experienced versus the shock point in the red flag, fear or experienced, there is a certain tangible quality to both of them. The shock point and the red flag fear. There is a way in which I can describe it and say, well, this is what is happening externally, and that is what I'm afraid of.

Whereas the basic fear is so hidden that even when it's living in me, I'm so out of touch with its existence that I don't name it that way. And the closest conceptual example that comes to me is from the book, the Courage to Be by Paul Tillek, where he distinguishes between anxiety and fear. And Paul Ek talks about how anxiety is this amorphous, I can't really name anxiety, but I can name fear.

Fear is the form has more specificity. It has specificity. It has a form, and that's why what he says is that once anxiety converts into fear, it gives a sense of like, I can conquer it. I know what it is. I know what the enemy is.

Vipin: Yeah, there's tangibility and I can work on it.

Rasanath: Yes.

Vipin: Okay.

Rasanath: That's the difference between the three or between the basic fear and the shock point

Hari Prasada: the looks like.

That's very helpful. Yeah. I would say that gives us a kind of rope to climb up. And that's part of the value. There's more to this, but one way of describing the value of these fears and understanding them is that it gives you a kind of rope to hold onto that you could climb up to really face the basic fear.

'cause the basic fear is like that anxiety, which is amorphous, it's. So deep. It's so powerful and so insurmountable. Coming from the ego itself, this deep, deep sense of I am my mind and body and the identities that I pick up in this world. I'm not the core. I'm not the self, I'm not the soul, if you will, that is coming from such a deep place, whereas these.

Make it more concrete and clear what is happening so that I can hang onto it and then trace it back to the basic fear, which is very, very, very important. Now, when you're looking at Paul Tilley's model, which we really appreciate of the anxiety versus the fear, it's sort of a double-edged sword because.

Converting an anxiety into a fear is really useful. Objectively speaking, just for the reasons that we're talking about. Then you can actually face it. However, it's not a substitute for dealing with the anxiety because it will never. Conquer the anxiety. By conquering the fear, you do not conquer the anxiety, the source of it, the wellspring is still intact, so it gives us a false sense of hope and a false sense of accomplishment and even freedom.

If we think that by tackling the shock point, fear, or a fear, we have somehow taken care of the existential dilemma. It is not the case. So converting the anxiety into fear is useful and necessary, but if we mistake that for dealing with the anxiety rather than tracing back to the wellspring, that becomes our undoing.

So we must really, really understand this

Vipin: iad, when you were first explaining the transitional fears, you mentioned that when we play into these transitional fears is when we slip. To the lower level of consciousness. So I was picturing these transitional fears as gates in the cylinder. If we have the cylinder that's representing consciousness and we have the creative, controlling and destructive in between these broad levels of consciousness, are these gates, then the transitional fears are represent those gates.

So you were focused on slipping down. When we play into those fears, and I'm wondering. Someone's climbing the levels of consciousness. How do they pass through those gates the other way? So if you play into the fear, you slip, what does it look like when someone is moving from a lower level of consciousness to a higher level of consciousness?

How do they encounter that shock point? Fear on the way up.

Hari Prasada: That again, brings this metaphor into place of climbing the rope, using these transitional fears as a rope to climb up, to get back to the basic fear, which is the origin of them. And then when you deal with that. Ooh, that is very powerful. That is very, very powerful.

Then you're dealing with the ego most directly and fully. I also just very clear that when Raat is talking about being able to name these transitional fears as opposed to the basic fear, we can also name the basic fear we do, where there's a basic fear that is named for each of these types and vice versa.

We have a very hard time naming the shock point and red flag fears, especially as they're taking place in us because we're so unconscious and we are typically just ruled by them in a similar way as we are ruled by the basic fear. It's sort of the extension of the basic fear ruling us. So the work here to climb up the rope, to see the ego and what it's doing.

Is you have to become conscious of these two fears, and particularly you want to be conscious of the fear that is closer to you. The red flag fear for most people that are going to be listening to this episode of the podcast should be more distant. That won't be the case for everybody, but the reason why it's more distant is because to do this self work, it takes a lot.

It's not for the faint of heart. If somebody is struggling so heavily with the red flag fear, which is so heavy in and of itself, it's really difficult to want to turn on a podcast about how to do this self work. You're in a different consciousness, you're in a different place, you're not receptive. There are exceptions, and we hope to reach those people.

That is glorious. That is really, really amazing. But they're the exception, not the rule. So becoming conscious of these fears helps us to work our way up the levels of consciousness. And then you see, ah, yes, the shock point fear. I can see that in myself. I can see that it's not theoretical. I know what that's like and I'm not going to play into it.

I refuse to just act based on its dictates.

Vipin: I think it would be really helpful if you could walk us through the transitional fears for a couple of types to help us understand what activates these fears and how they tend to manifest in the context of a specific personality.

Hari Prasada: For the type four, for example, the shock point fear is my fluctuating feelings won't support me or my creativity.

This is, uh, an adaptation of Don and Russ's rendering of the shock point. Fear. My fluctuating feelings won't support me or my creativity, and this is stemming from the basic fear of losing my true identity, losing myself. Why? How is it related? Because the true self. Truly resides in the heart. It's a fact that the self resides in the heart, and what is the function of the heart feeling?

So I think I'm getting closer to my true identity to who I am if I feel, and that's not a wrong paradigm, by the way. What happens is it gets distorted. Because I mistake feeling, period for getting close to the self, whereas you can't get close to the self without feeling. Just because you're feeling doesn't mean you're getting close to the self.

This is where the fours go wrong. So then they put all of their stock on feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling. And it's sort of a, a hyper productive heart, overly productive. And I will settle for any kind of feeling to feel like, ah, yes, I'm myself, I, myself, I, myself. This goes back to what Russ says, the fours, they think Descartes is wrong.

That it's not. I think therefore, I am. It's something else. The fours, I like to say they put their own spin on anything, so they put their own spin on Descartes. I feel therefore I am. And the shock point fear is then, oh my fluctuating feelings. 'cause they're constantly going up and down and sideways and in every direction.

My fluctuating feelings won't support me or my creativity. My creativity is so important to my sense of originality, depth, beauty, originality you. You can clearly see connects, but depth and beauty also. So I. This is really difficult for the four. And then as I get worse, more and more entrenched in my ego and trying to create a proxy for the self because I can't find my true self, because that is a deep spiritual process to uncover the true self.

And I'm not doing that. And even if I'm engaged in something spiritual, I'm letting my ego run the show, which is blocking me from the spirituality that I seek. So then I just go down and down and down, and I put the pedal to the metal on trying to feel like I'm myself, but really I'm just settling for a version on myself, which is only sealing myself further and creating more walls to actually accessing it.

So then I get to the red flag. Fear. I'm ruining my life and squandering my opportunities. Again, adapting Don and Russ. I'm ruining my life and squandering my opportunities. So now, because I'm so intent on feeling, feeling, feeling at all costs and being authentic to a version of myself, that simply isn't my ego.

Something that feels like, yeah, I won't sell out to this idea of myself, but it's a projection. I am so hurt and misunderstood. My feelings are killing me. They're not enough when I want them. They're too much every other time, and I feel like I'm. Losing myself so badly that I'm ruining my life. And every opportunity I have to actually show my gifts, my talents, my creativity, and contribute to the world with depth and beauty.

It's all going down the drain. It's finished. And I fear that I will never be able to be myself again. And if I believe that. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It becomes true. So losing my true identity, the basic fear becomes consecrated completely

Vipin: very vivid. The red flag fear that you shared for the type four feels quite universal at that level of consciousness that that would be something that many types would experience.

Hari Prasada: There's a universality to all of these. You're absolutely right that the red flag fear, the way that it's stated, you can tap into that readily. Some types will tap into some. Red flag fears or shock point fears more readily than others. Some people within those types, or based on circumstance, may tap in more readily and some just feel more universal regardless of, uh, the specifics.

But we should understand that there's something very particular here for that type that is absolutely critical to understand. And if the type does not grasp this, they're at the mercy of it.

Vipin: I was thinking that the fear of squandering opportunities, while it may be a red flag, fear for the type four, is probably a, a fear that affects the type three at much higher levels of consciousness, almost like a, a basic fear.

Rasanath: Also at the stage of the red flag, fear as much as we talk about it as fear. It is actually closer to what is potentially happening. So when you are at the red flag stage, the reality of the fear is much higher,

Hari Prasada: which is makes it so hard to deal with because there is something truthful about it.

Rasanath: And this is an important distinction because when we talk about these two kinds of fear, and I've experienced this both in the coaching work and you know, in my own personal work, that because of how the ego.

Wants to work. It has a way of saying, well, I just wanna make sure I don't reach the red flag fear, but I'm not the shock point. Fear is something that I don't necessarily really work on. That's why most people are trapped in the controlling levels of consciousness. It is between. The shock point and the red flag fears

Hari Prasada: practically everybody, unless you're doing crazy amounts of self work and you have deep spiritual understanding and we're all in that place, it's sort of

Rasanath: like, uh, the ego likes that convenience spot, right?

But what happens when we don't consciously work on ourselves is that the red flag fear, it just takes a few circumstances for the red flag fear to really show up. It's not a lot. And at that point in time when we are experiencing the red flag fear and consistently, perhaps that means there is truth about the fear actually becoming reality.

Which is what makes it so tangible. Now, that's a wake up call. The reason why I am there is because of how I have conducted myself, but the challenge when I feel that the fear is going to become more real, and this is what, when we say, when we talk about the levels of consciousness as the definition of insanity.

Is to continue the same behavior expecting a different result. The challenge in the red flag fear when we hit the red flag fear is that we don't know any other way of operating. Unfortunately, if we don't wake up, then we tend to push on the same behavior that has gotten us to that place in the hopes that it will take us out of it and it doesn't work.

Hari Prasada: I should also say that there is. A tangibility and an accessibility to the red flag. Fear in all of us, even though I was speaking more overarchingly, that that will be less close to most of us who are listening. It does rear its ugly head, and there are moments you can imagine when you're in an argument with somebody or you are.

Really feeling very down, like even depressed. The red flag fear is right there waiting to be succumbed to putting tons of pressure on you. And while it may not be the overarching feature of your life, it is very much present and I don't wanna undersell that. There are ways in which we play into it, perhaps even on a daily basis.

But it's not as severe as when you're sitting at that border, and that's what's in your face, in your life, period. So just as we talk about the destructive consciousness, there are people who live in the destructive consciousness and then it's very difficult to do this work. And then there are those of us who will dip into it.

Hopefully not too far down. 'cause the beginning of the destructive consciousness is a kind of rage that manifests as shouting perhaps, or self-hatred or something. But it can be fleeting. It can come and go. It gets really sticky as you go further and it gets more and more violent emotionally and and ultimately physically.

So we all have access to the destructive consciousness and the higher our level of consciousness, the less access we have to it, but we all have some access to it. And we can also understand that if we were to let ourselves go, if we were not to be doing the work on ourselves, not to be controlling ourselves.

And if we had circumstances that made us so insecure, if life didn't go our way, the way it may be currently, or at least to some degree, the way it's going currently, if we lost some major, major pieces of stability, the red flag fear is right there. So it is not to say that this is any less relevant. It just may not be as close to us or as critical to work on as the shock point fear.

Vipin: You mentioned that there's truth in the red flag, fear. Is that also true of the shock point? Fear?

Rasanath: It's a great question and maybe I can respond to that by using the type three as an example. So the shock point fear for the three is I'm falling behind and will be outshining by the accomplishments of others.

Now the thing is, there is truth here, but the experience of the truth is, so this is what happens, the shock point, fear for the three. When I feel that I'm being out shown by somebody else, my value falls to zero. Self proceed value. It reminds me of my basic fear, which is I'm worthless. Now, that is not necessarily true, but because I'm not in touch with my worth, the experience is that I'm worthless.

Vipin: Well, what is true then? What is true about, I'm feeling out shown by others because as soon as you say there's some truth in it, then of course. I'm going to try to manage that by trying to outshine others and I'm actually playing into the fear directly.

Rasanath: So this is how it manifests. So in a particular instance, like for example, somebody may get more credit in a particular situation than you would in that case.

Somebody is receiving more credit than you have. Somebody is being more visible than you are. The experience, the inner experience of that is. The person who received the credit is worthy of everything and I'm worthy of nothing. That is the inner experience. So my response to that is very visceral as though someone just took away everything, all my worth, whereas that is actually not true in a particular circumstance.

Somebody can actually perform better than you can, but that doesn't mean you've lost all your worth. But the inner experience of it is I've lost all my worth at this point.

Vipin: Well, what if you didn't have that extreme response? It was just, wow, this person is better than me, or This person is higher than me, more prominent, more important, whatever it is.

Then using the rope metaphor that Harry Personage shared about climbing up through that rope, how do I deal with the truth that you're suggesting? That I am actually falling behind?

Rasanath: In this situation, in this particular situation, there may be multiple ways to understand this. One way to understand this would be somebody is actually consistently better than I am in doing this, and that is when I learn how to accept that, which is not an easy thing to do.

Mm. Right. Then there is an honest acknowledgement. Right? There is a way in which I work through my envy. And with my experience, envy is the flip side of appreciation. I'm appreciating something about the person, but the way I I experience it is I wish I had, I had it exclusively. So when I can accept that the other person is actually better than me, there is a way in which I can appreciate the person without actually necessarily putting myself down completely.

It's not a zero sum game, although it can feel like a zero sum game.

Vipin: So you're saying that actually I first have to accept that I'm not going to be the best, the most important, the most valuable in all circumstances. And then with that acceptance, then what follows is to actually be able to be in touch with my.

Value without it needing to be the highest or better than.

Rasanath: That's right. And so when I talk about this to many threes, they would say, well then, then why would I even do something if I'm not the best at it? Right? I should just quit. If somebody else is better than me, I should just quit. And I've heard this so many times.

The whole energy around me doing something is completely deflated when I realize. That I will never be recognized as the best in it, but there is a place where I will play my best game, and then I do not have necessarily any control on the outcomes. And you know, in any given day, somebody else can be better than me, and I can appreciate that.

It's a very different outlook. Then saying, I need to be best at this, otherwise I'm just quitting. I done, I done this.

Hari Prasada: This is where the rope metaphor comes back into play, because that is not satisfactory To do, that is not satisfactory. That is not working on the ego sufficiently. You have to trace it back to its source.

Where is this coming from? The fear of being worthless, which is the basic fear of the three, and when you equate worth or value with some external productivity, it is a false equivalence and it doesn't work. That is the whole problem. So by saying, well, you know, I'll do this even if I'm not the best at it, and look at my value, I'm still valuable.

What is the true value? Does that have anything to do with the self? Will it ever quell the fear of worthlessness? No, because it's not even touching the thing.

Rasanath: So now when we come to the red flag fear, and the red flag fear for the three is I'm actually failing and my claims are empty and fraudulent. Now, what's going on here is when I slip into the controlling levels, when I compensate.

For my shock point, fear, I'm falling behind and will be outshining by the accomplishments of others. The typical ways in which I cope with it if I'm not taking ownership of it is by fudging The truth is by making myself look bigger than I am, and then I continued doing that. And then if I'm surrounded by people who actually see through it consistently, then the red flag fear becomes a truth.

I'm actually failing and my claims are empty and fraudulent because what I have done is essentially projected more than actually doing the work. When somebody begins to see it now, when they're beginning to see it, I can't claim that what they're seeing or what I'm experiencing is not true because that is exactly what I have potentially done to make myself feel better.

But now the fear is more closer to reality, that actually I have failed, but I have covered it up and I have projected myself as bigger than who I am, and now I'm concerned. I'm very concerned. That people will see me for my worthlessness. They will find me out, and there is truth to it now because you will be found out that is very, very visceral, but it's close to reality.

Now

Vipin: when there's truth to it, then how do you work on that red flag? Fear?

Hari Prasada: This is the thing. See, the shock point, fear is I'm not enough of who I'm supposed to be. The red flag fear is, and I will never be. So this is where you can see the distortion. In spite of the truth, the I will never be. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you believe it. If you believe it, you're right. If you don't believe it, it doesn't have to be. So the idea of taking this example of the type three that. I'm failing and my claims are empty and fraudulent. I'm actually failing and my claims are empty and fraudulent. That doesn't have to be the reality we resign ourselves to.

Yes, I may have brought myself to that point, and so there is a truth to it at this moment, but I can walk myself back from that. The idea of I will always be that way. I will never be who I truly am, the self. That is what we have to pay attention to. So the red flag fear here is not playing into or working with the red flag.

Fear here is not playing into this idea of this is the absolute truth. Yes, there's truth now, and I have to take responsibility for the truth of that, and I have to work on myself like anything but the moment, I believe this is the absolute truth. I have nailed myself to it and I will not be able to change it.

Likewise, that is true for the shock point. Fear. There is truth to what's happening at the shock point, fear level. And I have to not just buy into it like that. I have to do something about it to change the truth of it.

Rasanath: The thing with the red flag, fear is the mirror that it holds in terms of taking responsibility.

Going back to the red flag, fear of the type three, I'm actually failing and my claims are empty and fraudulent. I have to look at the ways in which I have fudged the truth. If we are able to do it, it's a form of extreme responsibility. It's actually very, very powerful. But what it also takes is going back and genuinely claiming responsibility for what I have done.

The climb is steeper. It's not impossible, but that is exactly what the red flag fear is doing. It is saying, Hey, the mirror is being held.

Vipin: Yeah, it's a red flag for a reason. I mean, this is very dangerous.

Rasanath: Yes, this is very dangerous. You are like, you'll jump off the cliff. If you don't turn back, you will jump off the cliff if you don't turn back, and the only way here is to turn back, but then what the tendency is to just turn back enough so that I don't fall off the cliff.

That is typically how the ego copes with it. It's like I just walk back just enough so that I can stay safe so that I won't be found out, so that I won't be found out. But all that it takes is one really hard slip. Because we are very close to the edge.

Vipin: I've been wanting to ask this. We've been talking about the shock point fear and the red flag fear, and so what's the significance of those terms?

We just talked about the red flag fear and this really danger sign. Why is the shock point fear called the shock point? Fear? What is the significance of that

Rasanath: Today, I, I remember Russ explaining is there is a sense of shift in our experience of reality. The way he talks about it is that. It's just like two tectonic plates shift and it creates a seismic effect.

The shock point fear, it creates a similar seismic effect in the sense that it pushes us into a way of behaving almost instantly. It's like a, it shocks your system and you respond to the shock in a particular way, and when you continue to respond that way, it becomes a way of being. But that fear has a pinch to it.

It really hits the system. It shocks it, right? So as a three, when somebody gets appreciated in a room, and I know when we are honest as type threes, it pinches. It hurts when I don't feel seen as somebody else is seen in the room. Now, when I give into the fear, then I slip into the controlling level. So that shock.

Makes me slip into the controlling levels of consciousness.

Vipin: So the shock point fear sits between the creative level of consciousness and the controlling level of consciousness, and the red flag fear sits in between the controlling level of consciousness and the destructive level of consciousness. When you just name the shock point, fear for the type three of someone getting appreciation and then me feeling a pinch, that feels like it could be experienced.

Across levels of consciousness in many ways. Like how does one experience these fears outside of just the cusp, between these two levels? Are these transitional fears exclusively the experience of being in between levels? Because then one might think, oh, I'm experiencing feeling overshadowed. As a three, does that mean I'm sitting right at the cusp between creative and controlling?

Probably not, right?

Hari Prasada: No, it means that you're playing into it. If you're in the controlling, you're playing into it regularly. And when you can catch that, then you can make a different choice and elevate your consciousness beyond.

Rasanath: The other thing here is the, it's not the recognition that it's not circumstantial.

It's not the situation

Hari Prasada: exactly.

Rasanath: Uh, many times with the shock point, fear. At least the way I internalize it. Oh, it is this particular situation and if I can actually work in the situation, then I'll go beyond it. That is a fallacy.

Hari Prasada: That's not it.

Rasanath: It's not the situation. So when you're sitting at the cusp, the recognition, you actually have begun to recognize that this is not circumstantial, this is innate.

This is something that I carry. So the slip happens when I'm not aware of it, the growth happens. When I become aware of it. So the awareness here is that it is not an external situation. It is an inner thing that I carry, and that is what I have to really look at.

Hari Prasada: This is extremely important. Going back to the beginning of your question of is this more circumstantial versus the existential of the basic fear?

And the answer is not quite, no. It's, this is also existential, but the basic fear is the most existential, and it underlies all of this. It's the producer of the shock point and the red flag, and all fears, I mean, at least all type related fears. So. That is what we have to grasp and for ease of understanding.

We might give a circumstance that triggers the shock point or red flag fear, but at the heart of it, we must understand it is not about the circumstance,

Rasanath: and when we become aware of it, we actually realize it's a daily experience. The shock point fear is a daily minute to minute experience. It's happening all the time.

The crazy part is we numb ourselves to the small experiences of it. We think, oh, it is just this one thing that happened.

Hari Prasada: It doesn't require any external trigger. It's living in me. It's just coming from the basic fear, which is ever present all the time until I become self-realized and liberated from it.

Vipin: I understand that the shock point fear would be. Experienced all the time in the controlling consciousness. Is it true also in the creative consciousness if this fear sits in between the creative and the controlling, and one is in the creative consciousness, a rare soul lets the creative consciousness, do they still experience the shock point, fear continuously

Rasanath: what they begin to see?

Is the connection between the shock point and the shock point. Fear is experienced because there are plenty of circumstances, and in fact, when we are breaking into the creative from the controlling, the experience is I'm like drowning in this thing. It's always there, but then now I understand this is the reality of my existence.

This is something that I have to work through. I have to take responsibility, I have to take ownership. So now, and that's what we talk about, the shift from the controlling to the creative is there is the experience of conscious suffering. I become in the controlling levels. I numb myself to the suffering, which increases the suffering actually.

But when we are breaking into the creative levels of consciousness, I am not choosing to hide anymore, and that increases the suffering. But it also increases my sense of freedom because I now know it's my responsibility.

Hari Prasada: It increases the feeling of suffering because you're no longer numbing yourself to it.

You're not taking the escape valves. You're not choosing to turn a blind eye and anesthetize. Instead, you're choosing to stay with, which takes a lot of courage and a lot of strength. That is a more feeling of suffering. Yes.

Rasanath: You stop blaming external circumstances. You really understand this is something that you carry.

And then with time, as you work on it, every time you experience it, this is where Don and Russ, there is a certain lightness to, well, there I go again. There it is. You see it and there is, you laugh at it because you see the ridiculousness of it, but now because you have learned how to take responsibility for it.

You also begin to experience the freedom of not being controlled, but you don't feel the need to respond and react to it because you know all too well where it's coming from. So that then over time makes it much easier to carry the suffering. And that is true Resilience, to be honest, is the capacity to carry our own suffering is how I define resilience.

And that resilience then helps us. Then really starting to focus on how do I work through the basic fear? How do I really look at the basic fear, own it, and and go beyond it?

Vipin: One of the things that I'm taking away from this conversation, which is a new understanding for me, is my previous conception was that these transitional fears really existed at the transitions between consciousness that they were exclusively relegated to.

The cusp between creative and controlling and then controlling and destructive, which is in line with my own experience, is that these fears, they have this similar existential quality to the basic fear that. We experience the shock point fear throughout the controlling level of consciousness, as well as the creative level of consciousness, similar to how we would experience the basic fear.

It's another very tangible manifestation of it. So in the case of the type three, as you were speaking about Ana, while the basic fear of. Worthlessness. It's described in absolute terms to be worthless or not. The shock point, fear of being overshadowed is a relative. It's the same fear of worthlessness.

Now I'm worthless relative to someone else, and that makes me feel overshadowed. But these are very broad fears that exist in the shift. It can be particularly pinching between levels of consciousness. It won't go away just because you've transcended a level of consciousness, nor because you've fallen deeper into a lower level of consciousness.

Hari Prasada: Yeah. At the creative consciousness, you are not playing into the fear, the fear. It's still there. You're just not playing into it.

Vipin: You're not acting. You're aware of it, but not acting on it.

Hari Prasada: Yes. And when you do and, and you slip a little bit, you take responsibility and you work your way back up. So that is the creative at the controlling, you're just perpetually playing into it.

So it's not like there was a single moment when I was afraid that I was being overshadowed. It's. This is my life. I'm living my life to not be overshadowed, and I feel very motivated by that. That's great. You know, I accomplish a lot that way. It's great, but it's not great.

Vipin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking, you know, the metaphor of the gate suggests that I walk through the door and then I leave that gate behind me, whether I'm going in or out.

But I think it's almost like someone has given me a bag of weight to carry. And so as I slipped from the creative to the controlling. I've been given this additional weight. I carry it with me into the controlling and I'm living with it. And then maybe as I climb up the rope into the creative, I'm able to put that weight down.

I have, I can see it, but I'm not going to carry it or act on it in the same way. I don't know if that, for me, that maybe is a change to the, the metaphor of the gate because it represents or it's. More aligned with the notion that that shock point fear is more pervasive than just at the border crossings.

Hari Prasada: The gates are real, but it's a little more conceptual. How it plays out is that. Yeah, you, it's there. We're constantly walking through or being pushed towards that gate and we have to decide, no, I'm not gonna walk through or I'm going to walk out of that gate.

Vipin: Okay, great. So how does this understanding of the transitional fears help us on the spiritual journey?

From the ego to the self,

Rasanath: ultimately the walk. From the ego to the self requires for us to confront the basic fear and own, fully own it. And the reason why this is so again, the difference between, you could call it an illusionary difference between the basic fear and the shock point and the red flag fear is that we somehow feel that, especially the shock point field is something that we're gonna act on it.

You know, the fear will go away and it doesn't really, the thing with the basic fear is there is an inherent helplessness around it. When I truly confront the basic fear, I actually, which is why for most of us, we don't want to really look at it because it makes us feel very helpless and we resign to it.

But when we resign to it, we are then now dealing with the outputs of that basic fear, which manifests in the form of the shock point of the red flag. So spiritually, the recognition of helplessness actually brings us to a place where. We are truly humbled and the understanding that I can't free myself from the ego by using the ego.

I require something or someone who is outside of that system to free me, and that is that feeling of helplessness because I now know and I confront the fact that what I have identified myself with so deeply will never free me from the fear. And that's the corridor where real spirituality actually starts.

That's where the rubber meets the road, and we don't necessarily give ourselves that opportunity.

Hari Prasada: You have to recognize that the ego is a failing project. It is always failing, always. It gives us signs of hope. It gives us false hope, but it is a failing project. And the shock point, fear disguises the basic fear and makes it seem like, oh.

Here's the sign of hope. If only I do this, then I can quell the fear, which will quell the overarching anxiety, but it doesn't work. So the shock point, fear and, and likewise for the red flag, fear at a lower level, we have to address them and trace them back to the basic fear, which is the ego's chief generation of.

Ideology to control us. We are sitting at the mercy of our egos in the grip of the basic fear and the shock point. Fear is pointing to that. Do we wanna see it? Do we want to see it? That's the question we have to ask. And if we do want to see it, which takes a lot. Again, this takes real courage and strength.

What to speak up to, stay with it and do something about it then. We have real hope and then real hope comes and we have to actually do battle with our egos and we have to confront what we have lived, our lives falsely. Under the premise of that I am something I'm not. I am a projection of my true self.

I am a covering to my soul. And when I start identifying with who is behind the covering, who is beyond that? That me that is buried beneath all these worldly identities I picked up and that I'm proving and defending constantly. That is the whole thing. So the shock point fear is pointing us to that most epic journey.

The red flag, fear even more in a dire way, although the shock point, fear gives us the leverage because by the time we get to the red flag, fear. The leverage is very little. There's very little we can do. At the shock point, fear level, we have the leverage to do something. Please take the opportunity, see what this is actually pointing to.

The basic fear, the ego itself, and determine that I want to be who I really am. I don't want to just live a life. Based on the basic fear, live a life completely consumed by the basic fear. Unbeknownst to me,

Rasanath: and sometimes I often hear when we speak about the fears, especially, and people say, well, you know, but it's not really practical.

Give me something practical. Well, you're talking about the fear and the awareness of the fears, and I want to, I want to do something. The practical sometimes is, is the escape from actually learning how to. Experience the fear, but recognize that I'm actually helpless, right? The existential nature and how deep the existential nature of this runs, that creates a kind of humility that nothing else can really, that doesn't mean we are impractical, but now our spiritual pursuits become more real because we fully recognize that the ego.

That through in the paradigm of the ego, I'll never be able to break free of this. There has to be a different paradigm.

Hari Prasada: I really need the spiritual paradigm. I really need spiritual practice and sga or connection with spiritual people who are advanced, who are further along than I am. I need, I need, I need my helplessness.

Converts into determination and the helplessness drives the determination. So instead of the determination being based on trying to quell a fear, now the determination is based on actually trying to get to the root of that fear and surmount it in the only way that it can possibly be surmounted, which is through self-realization, identifying with the true self.

That is the soul spirit based on spiritual practice and under the guidance of those who are teaching and giving those practice.

Vipin: So as a final question for our listeners, what is the first step that one can take to begin working on the shock point fear or the red flag? Fear, if that happens to be where one is,

Hari Prasada: just see it in your life.

See how it's affecting you, how it's pervading, how you're playing into it, and stay with that. Then hopefully you'll decide, oh, I don't want to just be under its spell. Let me actually see where is this coming from and how is this related to my basic fear? Then everything opens up.

Vipin: So become aware first.

Become aware

Hari Prasada: personally, how is this playing out in my life? Then you have to think, oh, I'm going to turn away from this because I don't like it. I don't like to see it. Then you have to stay with it, and then you have to trace it back to the origin, the wellspring, which is the basic fear, and then you have to start making new decisions.

Vipin: So you've given many steps, which are helpful, a sequence of steps, and where can listeners find all of these transitional fears

Hari Prasada: they're on, or

Vipin: we've spoken about the type four and the type three, but for all the other transitional fears for each type, they're all on our website.

Hari Prasada: Yeah.

Vipin: Well, I'm first of all appreciating that even after.

More than 10 years of working with the Enneagram and sitting down in this conversation about transitional fears with you both and I have learned a lot, and I'm taking away a lot from this conversation and that. Just another indicator of how much wealth and wisdom there is in this Enneagram framework and in the both of you.

So I'm grateful and, uh, so happy to be doing this with you.

Hari Prasada: I'm so grateful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to everyone listening.

Vipin: Thank you.