Imposter Syndrome

This is an automated transcript and may contain minor errors.

Vipin: All right, welcome everyone. We had an email exchange yesterday. Michael had shared feeling an intense experience of imposter syndrome. And while I was, this might be too much information, but while I was brushing my teeth this morning, I was like, that is, I'd love to explore that with you guys. I also had It was, funnily enough, this week, in three separate coaching sessions, imposter syndrome came up.

And I know that a lot of people, including myself, experience this in many different ways and not always sure how to deal with it, how to manage it. So I'd love to start actually kicking it to Michael. And the thing that struck me about your email was what you said about intense and intense experience of imposter syndrome.

And I was curious about what that felt like for you, what it was.

Michael: Yeah. Thank you. So we had a facilitation for a company, you and I. Last night, and it was mentioned a few times during the program and then a couple of times afterwards when we were speaking with some of the leadership that they were just so appreciative of the work that they've been and Michael were doing in the leadership that they had showed during the program and how easy of a process it had become because of our involvement.

And every time our names were mentioned next to each other. In that vein, I thought to myself, like, my name does not deserve to be in this sentence. I'm not qualified enough. I haven't been doing this long enough. You know, Vipin has been coaching this client for a long time and has the relationship and I'm just sort of here riding the coattails and have, you know, put together a document.

But really like what's happening here is so far above any sort of ability or qualifications that I have. And I don't deserve any of this praise. And. It was a body experience of shame that I was being recognized because since I didn't feel like I deserve the recognition, it was like this person must be giving this to me just to make me feel good and how needy am I to need this validation and they know that and that's why they're saying this.

So it was just kind of like this body feeling of shame I think and there's probably some other emotions mixed in but that was the

Hari Prasada: main one. I gotta jump in here. First of all, that was really touching to hear. Thank you for taking us through that. And secondly, I know that for most people, imposter syndrome means how to get rid of it.

I have a bit of a different view on that. I think that what you described is profoundly healthy. It's uncomfortable, it's unpleasant, but especially when you can articulate it like that. Obviously the articulation of it is honest and vulnerable, but even the experience of it is like a cleansing thing because, you know, the upbuild philosophy is all based on the premise that we are not our ego and we think we are, and that's a big problem.

That's the biggest problem in the world. That's it. It all comes down to that. And what you just described is how I am not my ego. And I don't want to be my ego and I don't want to identify with something That is going to bring me into my ego again So there's something very cleansing and very profound about what you shared whereas I think Most people experience the imposter syndrome and they're like where's the switch to shut it off As opposed to seeing what is this pointing to and how is this actually beneficial?

Now, of course, we don't want to be paralyzed, right? We don't want to Have self esteem issues that are crippling and that don't get us anywhere. That actually is based on the ego also when I think I should be better than I am. And I'm, I'm obsessed with not being good enough because I think I should be great.

That's not what we're looking at, but just the experience of humility and I felt something of the gratitude to Vipin and to the work that has been done with this client that speaks to me. And I think it's, it's a wonderful starting point to getting more and more comfortable in my skin, which I think is the reason why we want to shut off the imposter syndrome, because of course we should want to be comfortable in our skin.

Michael: Yeah. Thank you for that distinction. And I think that was my reflection after the program was over. 30 minutes before it started, my, my reflection may have been a bit different because at that point, It did feel like I was having some self esteem issues, like feeling really nervous and, you know, wondering how it was going to go and wanting to perform and sort of, you know, make sure that everyone had a good experience.

So that distinction was really helpful. And I think it was also the timing of when I was able to reflect on it, that changed the nature of it a little bit. Thank

Rasanath: you for sharing that. I think imposter syndrome has layers of complexity to it. I think the first layer is. It's around the validation piece where we do desire that we are seen as valuable.

Even if it's a role that we may not necessarily be fully equipped for. The fact that we have a role signals something about our own value. And so that's something that we desire the validation that comes with it. The second piece to it is then underneath that Then the recognition that I may not be able to sustain the validation If I step into the role because I may not necessarily be like fully equipped to perform the role on the level that i'm expected to perform So so when you get the role It's exciting because there is a space for your value to shine that has been created, but then now to step into it is confronting, especially when we feel quote unquote, unqualified to do the job because mostly.

we might feel exposed. The third piece around that complexity is I don't want to give up the validation. I so deeply desire it. And then the recognition that my, I desire that validation so much. And perhaps others see that about myself. I see that about myself. I don't like that about myself is the third piece of complexity that gets added to it.

So all of these create enough shame to create a system where I kind of feel trapped in it. I want it and I don't want it at the same time. I want the validation, but I don't know what it will mean to step into that role because I might lose the validation, but I don't know what I will do without the validation.

It creates this ecosystem that I just stay in it. And I feel the necessity to perform and still feel that, and this is the, as you said, Still feeling that I am getting something That I may not actually deserve, which creates shame. And then recognizing that I still need the validation creates shame. And

Hari Prasada: I don't, I don't know what to do with myself.

But that getting something that I feel I don't deserve. That is humility. That is a quality of the real self. That is not mistaking myself for my ego, and not feeling entitled, but actually being in a spirit of giving, if we approach it from that angle. So there's a tremendous opportunity here in imposter syndrome that we overlook completely.

Rasanath: But

Hari Prasada: the first

Rasanath: experience is, as quoting C. S. Lewis, right, humiliation comes before humility. The first experience is one of humiliation. Because for the ego, When the ego gets validation, it also has the sense of, oh, you're finally recognized, right? And there is something about feeling that I deserved it. I deserved it.

Maybe someone's like, I deserved it maybe 10 years ago and it's finally coming. Uh, but when I get it. And I recognize I haven't done enough. There is a sense of emptiness to it. And based on what Michael said, it can seem like, well, people are just trying to make me feel good because they are probably seeing that I need some validation and I feel the need to be included.

Maybe they are sensing how desperate I am to feel included. And so that's why they're giving it to me. But I don't want it that way. I want it in a way where it's almost like, well, you have finally come to recognize it. Actually, I was this good maybe five years ago, but then it took you a while to figure it out.

And so it's like, it's your moment of like, Oh, I should have recognized this a long time ago about you. Versus my moment of, oh man, they are seeing that I'm so desperately in need of validation. And they're perhaps giving that to me as an act of kindness. And kindness has a very, it's a, it's a charged thing.

It's almost like we all want kindness, but you also, we also want to deserve kindness, which is, which is kind of paradoxical because. Kindness is something that you get because the other person really truly feels kind towards you, whether you deserve it or not. But somehow for us to be able to take it inside, we feel like I need to deserve it.

Vipin: I was just thinking, just connecting what you said to Michael's original message. The second thing that struck me is Michael, when you said, and you may have an instinct to let me know here that I do. deserve, you know, the accolades that I'm receiving. And if you were to say that, I appreciate that, but I'm just sharing this with you.

And I, I just want to sit and process this. That also really struck me because there is that instinct. I had that instinct to, um, respond to your message and I'm, Sure that Hari and Rasanath did as well. Well, Hari didn't see it, but otherwise probably. And so you sort of guided us there in terms of what you needed.

And I think we were respecting that. And I'm curious. What was processed then when you were just, and I know you shared some of what you were experiencing in, in your body, but I was also thinking, Hmm, if I'm in your shoes, it goes back to what Hari was saying about, we want the on off switch and like, I'm feeling this shame or I'm feeling the imposter syndrome and like other people can help extinguish it.

And you actively in that moment were saying, you know what, I, I want to be with this and explore it. And what came from that for you?

Michael: Well, first of all, I definitely didn't want it to be like a compliment fishing expedition where I was saying this is just so the appreciation would then come again. And I wanted to see what I could learn from it and kind of go through the full life cycle of the emotion.

I know I'm constantly cutting off the full life cycle of emotions in my life for various reasons, usually to just keep going and moving forward and getting stuff done. And the fact that I was able to catch this one kind of real time also allowed me to And it wasn't that intense. It wasn't that it was intense.

It wasn't that painful though. So I actually had a moment where I'm like, let me see if I can learn from this. I think part of it, part of learning from this was to share it with you guys right away. Um, and then also to let myself experience it a little bit more fully than I might normally.

Vipin: And anything you would share about what you have learned from it?

Michael: It's kind of like any emotion. In that it's really good data, but it's not a fact that's going to be eternal. Like it's sort of this too shall pass type of a thing. And it eventually did. And I was able to see a little bit more clearly about how it happened. And also to think about the service that actually was provided to the company that we worked for and that it must have been a good experience for them.

And so it wasn't about. or what I did or anything. They were just expressing appreciation for what had transpired. And, you know, my physical presence was there. So I was a part of it.

Hari Prasada: You also put in a lot of work and that had a substantial impact. So the truth must also be seen. And, uh, I think that's incredibly important as we look at imposter syndrome.

What is the truth? You know, am I actually putting on a mask and trying to fit in to get validation, or am I doing something and feeling like, you know, someone else is doing more or like what is behind it, what is the truth and what do you know, deserve is a tricky word as we talked about, but what is real here and at a certain point in the life cycle of the ego, we will not feel we deserve anything.

And we will feel that we are only a product of other people's grace and care and investment shaping us. So there's nothing to hold on to in that sense, except the gratitude for what I've been allowed to become and what I'm allowed to offer as a result of what I've received. But it's not mine. I was just listening to a lecture from Radhanath Swami, uh, Rasnath's guru, and the person who started me on my spiritual path, who is incredible, a very self realized soul.

And he was describing how his guru, Srila Prabhupada, was explaining that in sharing self realization, And being the guru of so many self realized souls that he had brought into being, he just felt that he was a, uh, a messenger, that he was a peon, like a mail carrier, who is distributing wealth on behalf of somebody who is trying to send, let's say, a hundred dollars.

And so he's carrying the 100. He's the distributor of the wealth, but can he claim credit for that? He's just delivering it, and it's a nice thing to be the deliverer. Certainly, we feel some satisfaction in being a part of that, but what part? How much does he own? So the gratitude really goes to the brother whose money it was and who had the idea to send this and mailman was just doing his job.

So I think, you know, for us, it's good to keep in mind that actually nothing really belongs to us. And that will take care of a lot of the imposter syndrome. In fact, we'll start to see everything is imposter syndrome. Cause as soon as we think we are something and we deserve, we're missing the whole point.

That's just the ego coming in, which is an imposter. The real self is being held hostage and we don't even know it. It's completely unconscious unbeknownst to us. Cause that's all we know. We haven't experienced something otherwise. So for me, that is what is so poignant and going back to looking at the truth of things.

That's the ultimate truth, but also parts of the truth are what was I able to deliver in the mood of service, like that mail carrier. Right? What was I able to deliver that I should be really satisfied and grateful for? And what have other people done that have empowered me, that have given me that post that have given me that ability to reach people.

And sometimes I'll tell you honestly, with my own imposter syndrome, which I experienced all the time, It's so helpful to actually reach out and get some mirroring on this. Like I will unabashedly reach out to you guys. I would feel terrible shame if I was fishing for compliments, but sometimes I need to know what the truth is.

And I, I don't have all the confidence and. You know, the people that I love and who see me can afford me, can give me confidence, can give me a faith that is so empowering, that will make me step into the arena of service in a way that I didn't have before when it was just left to my own devices and trying to evaluate for myself, what is my role, what is my qualification for that role.

Michael: That's so helpful. Vipin, would you be open to sharing a little bit about the coaching conversations? Maybe is there a common thread between the three that you spoke about and we could possibly go from there in terms of seeing what best to do when imposter syndrome arises?

Vipin: Yeah, before I do that, just one comment on the back of what Hari Prasad just shared.

I had was thinking about As it relates to the topic that the imposter syndrome is really part of our inner critic, right? It's the same voice that's telling us we're not enough. We don't deserve. They might really find out that you don't know what you're doing, et cetera, et cetera. And so when Harry, you were talking about truth and finding the truth, it's sort of the same process that we use to develop a relationship, a healthy relationship with our inner critic applies here and that is to recognize that Where is the truth in that imposter syndrome?

What, what are the kernels, the nuggets that are helpful for me to recognize? And in this case, Michael, that you had shared, you articulated many of those things, which are true, you know, there's a existing relationship. Here with the organization that you are stepping into that, you know, other work has been done.

And then the other big piece is. with our inner critic, what are the distortions? What are the exaggerations that are happening here that usually more of the emphasis goes to? And so similarly, as you did, suggesting that you had no part to play Or that you, you know, your name doesn't belong in that appreciation and recognition were part of those distortions and exaggerations.

And it's so helpful to actually take that message that you're hearing and parse it in this way. Like, okay, so What is this pointing to? And I think Hari, you've really laid out how many truths are there in these messages for us that are really healthy and beneficial. And then also, you know, all of the distortions that if I can step away a little bit further back from, I might be able to see them myself, but often I need another, a mirror to help me parse those messages and, and, and navigate those things.

Hari Prasada: I could not agree more with your every word and this really takes me into the the spirit of our working with your inner critic workshop which every time we do it's so transformative for me because my own inner critic stuff comes up as we're really going deep into it. And that was, yeah, that's so powerful.

Thank you.

Michael: And it's not only the parsing out, it's also like the relative volume of the truth versus the distortion. And often the distortion is so much louder in volume. Like we quickly gloss over the truth. We'll even say, yeah, I know I'm got a good university degree, or I know that I did some work, but like, we're not letting it in.

We're not letting it, into our being. We're just really focusing on this other piece, which is much louder, which are the distortions.

Vipin: Well, this is so meta because the topic of the conversation in the meeting that we had was a three, uh, an organizational 360 degree review. And there's a section on what's really going well and what needs to be reinforced.

And there's a section on the challenges and all we've been doing for the past two weeks is really trying to reinforce this message of take in the first because it's so easy to gloss over and be like, okay. You know, I remember in my first job, we got a lot of feedback always. It was the culture of the company, but the culture of how to receive feedback was also, yeah, yeah, yeah, get to the good stuff.

Like, like I sort of, I'm trained to not hear the positives because I really want to do the work, which is the constructive. And, you know, what you're saying, We're almost trained to have the volume of the distortions be louder in that sense.

Hari Prasada: I think another side of this is actually that we think we shouldn't be, and this goes back to what you brought up, Michael, around the shame in the beginning.

We think we shouldn't need to hear what's going well. And, uh, we can't acknowledge that we do. And I think there's so much shame around receiving. The compliments or the positive feedback or the what's going well, peace. And it's like, that's the thing I'm thirsty for more than the negatives. Nobody wants to hear how bad they are at something.

They want to hear how amazing they are at something and that they're going to get even more amazing. And it's just that, I mean, I include myself in that, that does like. Hopefully I'm trying to divorce that from the ego, but for the sake of service I want to make sure that i'm always doing my best. I don't want to hear that It wasn't good or it wasn't good enough or there's so much better that it could have been that's like that's painful And especially when we're clinging to the ego, that's the worst thing for the ego.

That's exactly what we can't stand So yeah, I think we conveniently dismiss The positives based on shame, but secretly we're having a party. It's like, yes, this is it. But then i'm also like, I don't know if I should be looking at this I don't know if I should take it that way. But yes, I know i'm this i'm so good, right?

Or I don't think i'm this but thank god this is coming in, but I won't tell anybody the thank god part It's just like yeah good. Thanks

Vipin: You know, it's interesting I was sharing this in a coaching session Recently that, you know, goes back to being trained that like a, a really healthy relationship in a work context, especially, but even outside of that is one in which you can be really honest about the feedback.

And so there's constructive feedback kind of always at play. And I was sharing that in four plus years. That I've been an upbuild. I don't think I've received a single piece of constructive feedback from any of you. And I was reflecting on it's a completely different paradigm that we operate in. And it's not to say that there's not a case for constructive feedback for me.

I'm sure there's plenty, but that the framework is different that I think. When you see potentially those opportunities, you tolerate them and you tolerate potentially because you know that I am doing my best, that I'm doing everything that I can. And while I think it can be helpful to know where I might be falling short the way that what I experience is the positive, all the good is just getting amplified, right?

And Rasnath, you said this earlier that we assume the truth has to be negative. And what you experience in a container like this is that the truth, there's so much positive. And I think about like, okay, so what is the effect of all of that on my. work product and my motivation. And I don't think I've ever been, well, I've shared this with you all that I, I've had many experiences in my, you know, 20 plus years of work that where I've worked.

Like crazy work really hard. And, but I don't think any has come close to what I'm doing now in this environment. And just to say that the motivation is really strong. And I do think I can see it's almost the same as what we say in parenting. There's a lot of theory around this, where you can really just, you can ignore.

You don't put a lot of energy and attention into the negative behaviors, and you put a lot into the positive and the effect that that has on the child, and I see an experience of that in myself in this context that is so powerful. So I was just sharing in this coaching session the counter example that it.

There's another way here and it doesn't, it wouldn't necessarily work in any, every organizational context, but it just really challenged my notion. It has challenged my notion that, you know, a healthy relationship, what it looks like is one in which you're constantly being able to share constructive feedback with the other person.

Hari Prasada: I also just want to call out that, you know, there's another piece to why we have that relationship with negative feedback that we think is so healthy. It's that we have this sense that in order to be really great, you need to be thick skinned, you know, you need to be like, my feathers don't ruffle. You can just bring it on.

Like I am so intense and so awesome that you can't touch me. And what's speaking there, that's an ego culture. And it's so pervasive rather than being the opposite is vulnerability and saying, wow, You know what? That was a little painful for me. I have to see what's going on and, you know, maybe change something or speak about it or, you know, work on the relationship, work on the relationship with myself, there's so much that comes from the little pains.

And when we suppress them because that's the right thing and like, yeah, I'm tough. I can, I can be thick skinned. You just have to be thick skin. You just have to be, you have to learn it. We lose our hearts and we let the egos run the show.

Rasanath: I also wanted to, in reference to what you were sharing about, uh, what we are striving to create at Upbuild, I also feel, and this has been grace purely, I just see how each one of you has the ability to just take responsibility.

There's almost a sense that Each one of you are already catching things about yourself even before I have figured out what affected me. And there's so many times within when you have either sent a text or sent an email saying, Well, I said this yesterday and I reflected back and I felt that maybe I shouldn't have said it that way.

Or this is what I meant and I wanted to make sure that it didn't land in any other fashion. And then you see that that culture of relentless responsibility. Constructive feedback just falls in one sense. You don't need to have a forum to like, okay, let me tell you what you're missing because you're already looking so intently for it.

And that to me, that's what makes such a big difference is the responsibility, the ability to take that responsibility. And the only way that happens is when people feel safe to make themselves vulnerable. And people feel safe that they can go to places and, and actually say, you know what, I'm so sorry I reflected and I felt that I could have done it differently.

There was safety to be able to do that.

Vipin: And when it's modeled because you see the effect on you and somebody else. takes that responsibility and you feel like you can do the same because yeah, it's okay, it's okay, it's safe to do and you're aspiring to that model that has such an impact on you.

Rasanath: And Michael, to your email, what makes me so happy about the kind of emails that Like the one that I received yesterday from you about imposter syndrome was, well, first of all, I wouldn't know it.

And the second thing is that none of us, even if we were in the situation, would have seen it that way. But the willingness to go and look at yourself and then be able to like, say, hey, this is what I was experiencing. To me, It just feels like I don't have to, I don't have to really do much work in terms of constructive feedback because so much of it is being done and also the culture of coaching that we have, where we strive to like work with each other on what we need help on.

I think creating those forums makes it really easy to not create a forum for constructive feedback.

Hari Prasada: I had written this paper and we do a workshop called the humane feedback system where we talk about Constructive criticism that actually makes shifts. That's the purpose So this is not to throw out the baby with the bath water and there are certainly Many circumstances where this is crucial and needed at the same time.

What is the purpose of constructive criticism? It is to unearth things that are not being dealt with That are not being seen, not being dealt with. So when we are rigorously working. Individually and collectively to unearth everything we can when that is the mood, the intention and the commitment of every person and of the team.

It's very powerful. That is unlimitedly motivating for me as well. And it also just It reduces the amount of difficult conversations and the amount of difficulty, period. It just makes everything so much more encouraging and inspiring. And that's what we're craving. I know that's what I crave.

Vipin: It's interesting how we're, we started with imposter syndrome and we came to receiving compliments and feedback and Yeah.

How they're connected. Why do we feel imposter syndrome in the first place? Part of it is that we're not getting the, the encouragement. We're not seeing the truth of the, we're not receiving that encouragement and we're not seeing the truth in it. Michael, you had asked about the coaching sessions. I'll just say a word on that.

These were all in discovery sessions. And so it's with an organization that I've been working with. For a few years, and we've decided to go deeper into the organization to coach some more of the principles involved. And so three of these discovery sessions in those where we're just trying to understand what more about the person, what makes them tick, they shared in terms of answers to the questions of how are you your own worst enemy and what keeps you up at night and what do you want to work on.

Impostor syndrome came up in all three of them and that it struck me and the way it came up was, interestingly, the commentary was, I know that I have the skills here, or I know that I have the competence and yet I still feel like I lose the confidence to be like, I know what the truth is. And yet I'm continuously feeling, you know, ill equipped, ill prepared, or under confident.

And so we didn't coach on this yet, but it was just really interesting to me that that topic. Was so pervasive in these opening sessions. And also that, you know, it comes back to this point about truth and distortion. It felt like in all of the cases, people recognized there was a distortion and exaggeration there, but it could not help to sort of disentangle themselves from the feeling.

And that was so strong that they were living with, you know, on a day to day basis.

Michael: Razonato, you shared earlier about getting a role and then that sort of becomes baseline and then feeling like you now have to fully meet expectations and probably in most of our minds exceed expectations for the role that I have.

That's such a big part of imposter syndrome. I'm also working with someone who has discussed imposter syndrome recently. He's the CEO of a eight person organization, first time CEO. And it's tricky because In some ways, he's very qualified. And in some ways, he's actually not that qualified, especially just looking at experience, kind of nothing, nothing, saying nothing specifically about him.

And I'm wondering, in such a situation, which I think is probably pretty common across, you know, a lot of our community, how you might approach a situation like that, where there is a lot of truth, and there also is A lot of distortion.

Vipin: One thing that comes to me as soon as you said that is what makes one qualified to be the CEO of an eight person organization?

What experience makes one qualified to do it? Is it that you need to have been a CEO before? Is it that you need to have run a team that's that of that size? And you know, in some ways, when I think about, especially in entrepreneurial settings. Maybe the only thing that makes someone qualified is that they have vision and usually that's what that founder has that makes them perfectly qualified.

We would add the people

Hari Prasada: skills. That's not always valued. Some people have incredible vision and make tons of money and bring all kinds of success, but there's a lot of destruction in their wake.

Rasanath: Roles also bring a certain kind of pressure because A title like CEO, for example, it's a pedestal. There is almost like an intrinsic assumption that I can do no wrong as a CEO, like I have to do everything right.

There is a lot of pressure. And then alongside that, there is also the comparison to other CEOs. Usually the title CEO, we don't necessarily look at it as, okay, chief executive officer. We actually look at it as a position. Of high visibility, intense pressure, the pressure to perform at a certain pedestal.

And then we also compare ourselves to quote unquote, successful CEOs, right? Like Steve jobs is the, is the person that at least I hear quoted most, but like, you know, I don't think I'm like Steve jobs, but, and no, suddenly you have a clear imposter syndrome because. And so the question here is, how can I be my truest self?

And as soon as there is this pressure of performing like somebody else did, I am naturally an imposter because I am following the template that somebody else set, which is not me, which is not my truest, deepest self. So. To me, that role and taking on that kind of pressure is an invitation to really discovering what your true self is and going to places that we wouldn't have otherwise wanted to go.

But now this role is actually really pushing us to go. So again, it's the deepest exploration of truth, discovery, and yes, it is hard work. And many times the reason why people in high positions and leadership positions continue to live with imposter syndrome Is, uh, because the ego chooses to work hard to reduce the gap artificially by acquiring more skills or by trying to speak in a certain way or trying to impress in a certain way.

Whereas if a part, a good part of that hard work is actually taken internally to align with our truest, deepest self, then, uh, one, the imposter syndrome disappears. Number two, we work completely aligned with our biggest strengths. And there is just such a natural humility that comes with it. That's extremely attractive and incredibly, it becomes incredibly trustworthy.

So it, to me, this is an invitation to really understand who am I, if I take off all the things that I'm trying to be, which is again, going back to what Hari started off with, the ego is always trying to be something or trying to pose as something that we are not, and to

Michael: be able to say even to the people around us.

Even if we have that position of CEO or whatever the title might be, that would sort of put us above in rank versus the other people around us to be able to say to them, actually, I'm kind of out of my league here. I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm, I'm feeling uncomfortable. I'm feeling inadequate.

You're actually more equipped in this situation, or maybe we can figure it out some other way just to be very, you know, authentic and vulnerable about shortcomings. And I think that's a big part of, of kind of de escalating imposter syndrome also is to just bring it out in the open about what I'm feeling.

So that doesn't feel like one big secret.

Rasanath: Yeah, I completely agree with you. And then what I'm also recognizing is that, um, there needs to be a certain threshold of maturity In the people who actually can let you be that and uh, my experience is many times Leaders can't be vulnerable because they're also very genuinely and and rightfully so afraid of the impact That it can have on other people's confidence, truly.

So what this will take in order to be truly vulnerable is the excitement of discovery, the excitement of, yeah, I don't know, but I'm actually willing to work and understand and go as far as I can. And the trust that I want to do the best, I want to do whatever is there in my capacity to serve, knowing how to trust that will help us really become vulnerable in a way that when others are hearing our vulnerability, they can actually see that as.

Humility and at the same time, it doesn't erode their confidence.

Hari Prasada: We talk about raw vulnerability versus process vulnerability. And that's really critical to distinguish that when you have done the work and you are acutely aware of your vulnerability and you understand what's behind it, you can share it in a way that's very meaningful and actually touches people, can even inspire them.

But it creates an incredible amount of trust when you are so in touch with yourself and you're not holding back, that just has to be done artfully. And that means that we need at least one or two people in our life who we can process our vulnerabilities with. And that's also why we are so impassioned about coaching and why we coach each other.

It's just, there's no substitute. And most of us don't have that opportunity or don't value it. Don't know where to find it. It just couldn't be more empowering and healthy because otherwise that fear, as you said, Ross, not, it is merited, but the thing is, it shouldn't be, it should not be merited. We should be fearless to be ourselves and not always in the same way with everybody, but in a way that is real, according to the situation that is not, that is.

It's such a fine line between being strategic about how much I'm going to open up versus understanding what will serve here and being genuine about that. As opposed to like, I've kept my guard up this much, but not this much. And wasn't that good of me that I didn't keep it up this much, but I kept it up this much.

Like it has to be me in all circumstances, there cannot be a guard. It's just that I'm not going to dump on somebody, and I'm not going to, you know, tell my five year old kid everything that's wrong in my life because it's inappropriate. So we have to be understanding of what is the need, what will serve me and the other person.

And that only happens through introspection and accountability to introspect and help and the desire for help from other people. And then we don't have to walk around figuring out how much do I need to be on my guard versus how much can I be really liberal about it?

Vipin: Wow. What, what a lively discussion with a lot of twists and turns.

I've really appreciated it. To close, I would like to come back to the beginning, actually come back to Michael, um, where we started and just see, we started with your experience from last night and, and you processing it. And I'm just curious, what are you personally taking away from this collective conversation, especially as it relates to your experience?

From last night.

Michael: Yeah, I think being able to having, have the meta conversation about how I was feeling and sending the email in the first place was just really helpful because it, um, it immediately removed that feeling of secrecy or that feeling that I was experiencing this alone. Also seeing, you know, what role As like facilitator, I had taken on and why that attachment to that identity was probably the cause of this imposter syndrome in the first place.

The fact that I had been Given the opportunity and sort of given this role and this, you know, title, which there was no title, but that was how I was receiving it. And then seeing how much I wanted to, you know, perform and outperform relative to that title. So then seeing that more clearly and knowing that that's okay, but also knowing that it sort of, those, those feelings will pass and that that's not the entire truth and what is the truth is that, you know, we have, we're here to do a job and we're here to serve these people.

And this organization and you know, what part can I play to do that? And the example that you gave Hari of just being the deliverer, like how can I deliver the hundred dollars, but it's not my hundred dollars. You know, what knowledge and teachings have I been able to pick up from others that I could potentially, um, pass along here to help serve the cause that we're trying to serve.

Vipin: Thank you to all, all of you. This is really meaningful.